ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues 210.52(E)

I thought I smelled an ambush before I posted my reply. Live & Learn.

Dave

I think I see what Roger is asking. If I have a big flat concrete pad a couple inches above ground, and a house sitting on it, I presume it is "at grade". If the pad extends 20 feet beyond the house in all directions, standing on the pad next to the house would probably still be "at grade level".

Now let's raise the house. At what point do we say it is no longer at grade level? 6 inches? 2 feet? 5 feet? 12 feet?

210.52(E) uses the term "at grade level" in 2 ways. One is to select which units of a "two-family dwelling" must have these outside outlets. It seems the intent is that a 2nd floor apartment of a 2 unit building do not need this. But this still begs the question just how high is still "at grade level". I think much of this will hinge on the definition of "level". Think about it in terms of "floor levels" of a house.

If a dwelling that is 2 feet about the actual dirt level (not uncommon) is still considered "at grade level" for this purpose, then "at grade level" can mean whatever height to qualify. What I'm saying here is that since "at grade level" is used to qualify the unit to have these outside receptacles ... and "at grade level" is specified as where they must be accessible, then this must be implying that the same height can be used. So if the outlet is accessible from the porch at the same height as the house floor itself that is considered "at grade level", then the porch at the same level is suitable for "at grade level" access.

So there are 2 aspects to this question. One just how high does "at grade level" really mean (is there a definition somewhere?). The other is does "at grade level" mean the same thing in both places it is used in 210.52(E)? I can't see how one phrase can be expected to have 2 different meanings in the same paragraph.

So it seems to me that if a porch is at the same level as a house where the entry floor is considered "at grade level", then the porch is also "at grade level" ... whatever that is.

Disclaimer: I am not an electrician/EC. I just hire them sometimes to do electrical work in data centers I may be designing or managing. I'm also digging into these issues for a house design I may be building in the future.

At the risk of sending this thread in an entirely different direction, I would like to assert that journeymen are professionals, who are paid for their knowledge, experience and judgement- not simple slaves to the time clock, who "only do as told."
Indeed, I will go even farther to say that it is the electrician who is the expert- more so than any inspector, engineer, architect, or whatever.

Carry things far enough, and you reach the same point the US Supreme Court once reached in a pornography case: "I can't define it, but I know it when I see it!"

The only reason this sort of thing becomes an issue is when folks use the NEC as a design manual- rather than planning for the needs of the customer. Indeed, I make a fairly decent income converting new homes "built to code" into homes "suitable for living in."

These problems are made worse by the code attempting to be too specific, rather than defining principles. They are also the result of removing Joe Citizen from the process. The best definition of 'what is right' is 'what you can convince twelve strangers is appropriate."

We do have a criteria for determining if a set of stairs needs three-way light control. Applying that principle, perhaps "three steps" is a reasonable point where a second, lower receptacle is warranted. Similarily, we have the "six foot rule" for spacing; perhaps that could be applied to the width of decks and such.

If you're going to make this an enforcement issue, the time for application is at the plan review stage; it would be wrong to apply it after the house is up.

I'll explain the reason for this thread tomorrow.

Roger

Tiger,

A house down by the ocean or in a Flood Zone ( In some states , Like NJ) puts you in a Flood Zone area and you can not install any electrical appliance in the flood zone. That would mean HVAC, Services, motors, etc. That might be a state regulation which would override the NEC.

2005 Massachusetts Electrical Code Amendment

Harold, I think that is a FEMA rule and should be uniform in every state. We even have the AC condensers sitting on elevated pads if they are in a FEMA flood area.
You still might have service equipment <meters> and the 2 outdoor receptacles in the flood zone tho since they have to be accessible from grade.

Okay, the reason I started this thread.

The way I understand it is that there is a certain county in N.C. where the inspectors interpret the Handbook commentary (yes, we know it is just commentary, but some don't) "to be available to a person standing on the ground (at grade level)" to mean that if there were a 4" slab on grade patio under the receptacle, it would be tagged.

Now, if you jack hammered a 12" x 12" hole in the slab so that you could stand on earth (depending on shoe size the hole may need to be enlarged ) at the receptacle location it would pass.

Roger

Greg,

The POCO will allow the service meters up off the ground. They don't require them to be accesible on the grade. I guess their thought is that they will just shut off the power up at the pole. They wouldn't even go through the water to reach the house. I have seen houses that have like and open basement and the rest of the house is 15 feet in the air. The service meter is up on the deck and you have to go up the stairs to get to it. If the area floods, all the water will pass under and through this "basement" area. The building codes won't allow doors on this area or very small doors that will break down and allow the water to floow through.

Roger,
It is not just a handbook statement. It is the published statement of CMP2.
Don

[This message has been edited by resqcapt19 (edited 05-29-2005).]