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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
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Hi,
Geo-No need for any apologies..i appreciate the comments.
I can be hard headed at times..
your a stand up guy..and right 99% of the time..thats better than I can claim!
i have pondered this question before..
and wanted to jump in...
sorry to take over the thread if i did!
my apologies to any offended parties!
-reagrds
greg
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
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If we get to involved with this, and the Home Owner sees to many $$$$, their solution will be extension cords and plug strips much to our dismay, regardless of what side of the fence we are on.
Roger
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
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Hi,
My solution? make AFCI required for ALL circuits. Why not?
Wal-mart requires it for ALL of their panels at their stores.
I had several homeowners ask for ALL GFCI and ALL afci before...did not bother me!
-reagrds
Greg
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,716
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Greg, we have to be careful with the GFCI part since NFPA 72 11.6.3(5) doesn't allow "smoke alarms" on GFCI protected circuits.
Roger
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
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Hi,
roger, I am glad you pointed that out...in my haste to post I may have made too general of a statement...
good call..
-regards
greg
[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-16-2005).]
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 345
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Hi,
Geo- I do NOT speak with a forked tongue!
you are good at twisting things up!
I NEVER said what you just posted!
You may want to re-read the post.
What i said was that according to the VERY CLEAR NEC that ANY NEW installs had to be AFCI. that means ANY Extension of the circuit or ANY NEW OUTLETS..i want to hear you justify extending a circuit in a bedroom as not being NEW!
If you go to a 100 year old house and want to ADD an outlet in a bedroom THAT OUTLET MUST BE AFCI. so to meet that requirement AFCI must be added. How would you purpose to do that?
There are no AFCI receptacles...so the whole circuit would then have to be AFCI protected..just because the panel is a two wire panel or KNOB and tube or the panel wont accept is STILL not allowed! The code did that so that the PANEL WOULD GET UPGRADED!
I am guessing that you are an inspector..if you allow ANYBODY to extend or install A NEW OUTLET IN A BEDROOM and it is not AFCI protected you are NOT following the same NEC as the rest of us. Maybe you decide what is right or wrong where you are and that is fine.
I guess if you go to a house to change the service out to a new one you don't go in and add laundry circuits, GFCI or anything else? If you do you are VIOLATING THE CODE! The intent is that when a service change is needed and there is no GFCI or laundry circuits then, at the time of service upgrade you need to bring the rest of the dwelling into compliance! A lot of homeowners don't like this but when else would it get done?
I will send a request for clarification to the NEC and let you know what THEY say.
thats what I said or tried to say..
it seemed to me in your post you were either misinterpreting or trying to put your spin on it.
pretty simple stuff, but I just wanted to clear up a lot of BS that gets posted by some folks who should really know better!
nothing personal and I am not picking on you...it is just that you admit to making broad statements and in several post of yours you are DEAD WRONG!!
I will be glad to match wits with you any day of the week! All in good fun though!
-regards
Greg
[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-16-2005).] Greg I don't want not put words in your mouth so let me ask are you saying that when I do a heavy up of the service I am required to add laundry, small appliance, bathroom basin, and any other circuit I would be required to install in new construction? That would certainly be an effective way to force electrical upgrading work into the gray market. -- Tom Horne
Tom Horne
"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous for general use" Thomas Alva Edison
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 494
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Hi,
YES that is EXACTLY what I am saying! THIS IS NOT REQUIRED ON A BURNOUT..
When you do a service upgrade (it is required in MANY cities now and is coming to a city near you!)
A service UPGRADE is NOT a service upgrade UNLESS these items are addressed.
The homeowner gets a new service and the parts of the house that need updating get it too.
What good is a new 200A service on a 50 year old home unless these items are upgraded?
Sure we can't go in and jerk out all that 2 wire bx/ac cable but, we can install GFCI and AFCI protection and provide the laundry circuits.
I know that I will catch a lot of hell for this but I am a firm beleiver in the practice!
I NEVER install a NEW service at a place where there is NO GFI and no laundry circuits in place WITHOUT adding them.
GFi in the bath, kitch, garage, outdoors etc..
Sometimes it is a hard sell but it IS required in MANY CITIES NOW!
Better get used to it!
Expect to see this in the next code, because I am going to submit it for consideration to the NEC. I hope they bite!
-regards
greg
[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-17-2005).]
[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 03-17-2005).]
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,445 Likes: 3
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First of all, those who know me know that I am not a fan of the AFCI requirements.
I also think we are confusing ourselves with our cleverness.
Principles long established, and usually now incorporated in building codes, say thay new rules apply only to new work, while simplly maintaining or repairing something only requires that you meet the rules in effect at the time the work was first done.
For example, if you were replacing a painted-over two-prong receptacle in an old bedroom, you would be allowed to use a new two-prong receptacle.
If you were replacing a damaged fuseholder or a faulty breaker that happened to serve a bedroom, you would be able to use a similar item.
But....if you are installing a NEW outlet in a bedroom, today's code requires it to be on an AFCI-protected circuit. This could very well leave the new receptacle as the only AFCI protected outlet, as there is no requirement that all the outlets in the bedrom be on the same circuit. (A more likely result, in an older house, is that this would result in AFCI protection to receptacles in many different parts of the house.)
Only the part (circuit) you are doing new work on (adding to) needs to meet current code.
Following the issue "upstream," if the existing service cannot take an AFCI breaker, you will have to make a change there. As I see it, this could be accomplished with a complete service change, installing a sub-panel to serve the circuit, or (in the 2005 NEC) installing an AFCI device, in a metal raceway, within six feet of the main panel, wired to protect the rest of the circuit.
(Unfortunately, I'm not sure anyone is selling AFCI devices).
Keep it simple...NEW work meets NEW code. And keep it honest- let's not try to fit "new receptacle" into the "fix an old one" exception.
"Congress shall not pass any ex poste facto laws".
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 308
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If it is a rich person you make them upgrade the whole circuit.
If it is a poor person you let them just add the extra outlet to the existing branch circuit in the bedroom so they quit using extension cords.
Do you think I should submit this wording for the 2008 NEC?
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 717
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Last time I had to install new outlets in bedroom fed from existing bedroom circuit, I extended the existing circuit on an exterior wall to an exterior nema 3r 2 pole 4 space crouse hinds plastic load center, with the existing branch circuit lugged into the line side of said load center. I then installed an ark fault and fed my downstream loads off of that. Now I know that the load center feed is not sized as #8 or larger since it was from an existing branch circuit, but the ark fault is on my extension.
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