ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues service diconnect?

Hi,
Electricman-

You said: "is not subject to physical damage"

This is my point.

I am aware that some places it is acceptable to run a SE cable for the se conductors and feeder.

I also am not sure if it is code or not but it is the way to go. It may be that I have to ask an inspector for his interpretation. I do not know of ANY inspector that will allow a SE CABLE to extend from the meter base to the first ocpd without PROTECTION.

You can not do it anywhere I have ever worked.

My point was that the cable between the meter base and the first OCPD HAS NO PROTECTION.

If someone got into that cable they would have a serious problem.

If the cable has a breaker ahead of it I see no problem.

Without it...it’s dangerous.

Thanks for the comments.

Regards

Greg

Edited for content


[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 02-04-2005).]

Hey Scott thats what has me confused.I`m working with an electrician now who says if I leave the meter can even if it`s 5 ft if I go outside the wall the meter can is mounted I need a dico.Just want to clear this up. I guess based on post maybe it will vary inspector to inspector I personally have a hard time with that.I`m the grunt pulling wire and.... do things this way here its fine drive 20m miles away and you`re a dumb ass?? sorry but I`m working on getting the code down now.

Hi,
Cpal- Thanks for the code reference. I was not sure what the heck you were saying!

I say that when dealing with the service entrance conductors and distance inside a building, that this should NOT MATTER IF there is a ocpd at the meter. And if correct I do not beleive it does restrict the length.

The Main should be outside in my own opinion just so that it is accessible to the fire dept. etc.

My suggestion is to go buy a CSED or a combination meter and disconnect. If you use this you will never have a problem.

It may even be cheaper because you do not need a MBO panel you can use a MLO panel after that.

I worry that a se cable that is ran along the face of a floor joist or that is pulled through a stud wall IS subject to physical damage if you can drive a nail, screw or saw through it.

Take a sawsall and cut through a wall with a 200A se cable running through it with no ocpd and you could have a lethal situation.

Just my 2 cents.

A little extra work can add a whole new dimension to the safety of your installations.

Regards

Greg



[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 02-04-2005).]

Mustang
I applaud your workmanship and sense of responsibility.
More is generally better, but the NEC is a minimum standard and I do not believe that there is a minimum distance that unprotected conductors can transit (concealed or exposed) at a premises, cable or raceway. Obviously individual wiring methods will influence conditions of installation but they must be assessed for each case.

That being said it is a wise electrician that pays attention to the pucker factor.

Additionally local codes may influence such installations. In my jurisdiction the inspectors are limited in their interpretation of the Code. Local Codes although implied essentially do not exist.

We have a State board that adopts the NEC with amendments and local inspectors are sworn to follow these documents to best of their ability.


Keep up the good work

Charlie

Gregg, the se cable before the meter has no ocp either. Why does it matter if it is before or after the meter? The danger is equal and I do agree there is the potential for danger. From your replies I assume you have local codes that overide the NEC. Many houses around here have se fed out from the meter going into the basement where the service panel is located. It is usually a judgment call as to how far you can go with the unfused se. I saw one today that is about 15 feet. Certainly not "Nearest the point of entry of service conductors" as the NEC requires.

Un fused conductors present a problem, I believe that is why the language in 230.70 suggests that the service equipment be located "at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors".
230.50 Protection of Open Conductors and Cables Against Damage — States that Service-entrance conductors installed above ground shall be protected against physical damage.

Who determines if the cable is subject to physical damage??

Most installers would say it is obvious.

Hi,
I went to college in Maine and that is where I first encountered a jurisdiction that allows this. I later found out that it is done a lot in new england and some in kentucky.

Most other states and places that were not states would not allow this.

I see it all the time and yes it is permitted by the code BUT that depends on who you ask I guess.

I have seen the old and the new SE Cable setups and some of the older ones are pretty scary the way some of them terminate from the cable and weatherhead etc.

It is a cheap way to do it that is for sure!

I have never tried it but it looks like a quick install.

That is why I think that the code needs to change and to require the FIRST OCPD to be mounted adjacent to the METERBASE. I have seen some meters at the transformer so I do not know how well that would work out but it would settle a lot of arguments! Besides how many closets, cabinets, garages and god only knows what other locations meters and panels seem to end up. I saw one the other day that was a 42 circuit sq-d 200A main b panel full to the gills INSIDE of a ENTERTAINMENT CENTER. I had to lay on my stomach and lean in to get the cover off!

Another interesting thing I saw..someone had used the meterbase as a raceway and ran some 2/0 back out through the nipple to the meterbase and out the bottom of the meterbase to a new pool!

The poco will nail them the next time they read it...maybe!

Shoot even a 4 conductor 200 or 300A feeder with a breaker ahead of it is scary enough!

I do not want to find out how long it would take for the breaker to trip if I accidentally got into it!

I think when the code says "PHYSICAL PROTECTION" a se cabl with no protection between the xfmr and the first ocpd is exactly what they were talking about!

Very interesting topic though!

Regards

Greg

Greg in order to get the code changed you would need to show a problem with the code how it is today.

Having grown up in an area that uses a lot of SE I have not seen any problems with it.

It's great to go beyond code at times.

My own house has an SE service, I had bent up some RMC and started to install that, I did not like how it looked. I trashed the RMC and got copper SE.

Oh and my service disconnect is in the basement, about 5' from the point of entrance.

Bob

Hi,
i ahve seen the meterbase be on one end of a 2 story house with a basement and have the disconnect in the basement on the other end!

It varies a lot!

I cant name a single problem that I am aware of due to using the SE cable.

I love the stuff myself!

I have seen PVC and used it for short risers. I prefer EMT or IMC.

Regards

Greg

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 02-04-2005).]

Greg I don't think the code says "physical peotection". It says "Protection from physical damage". Totaly different. One means you would not be able to run se it by itself. The other means it has to be protected from physical damage. That is where the interpretation comes in. I see no basis for a code change on this one.