ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues GF BREAKER or STANDARD?

thank you, gfretwell, for a look into the IAEI and insight that is RIGHT ON!

"...the reality is anyone the EC would send for this 2 minute job might not be as good as a pool guy who does 2 a day."

in central florida a pool is inspected a minimum of four times, and not many of them are drive byes. coincidentally, the inspections fall just after every NEC related item.

every time rebar goes in there is a bond clamp, and an inspection.

some SCH 40 underground, or a light gets pulled. open trench inspection, inspection for potting compound at wet niche lug.

final inspection always includes a grab and tug on the screen bond.

between the flunking at one end and the EC riding herd at the other, all the pool subs feel the heat. they are experts at their "2 minute job(s)". and, on average, they do a more conscientious job than we do.

the grey SCH 40 the plumber puts in has primer at the glue joints, do yours?

most of the bond clamps on the rebar are potted. they are UL listed for concrete encased, i don't pot mine.

ok, it's not all sunshine and roses. i'd like to stop the plumbers from stringing the pool lights a stick at a time. complete the pipe run then pull the light!

sorry for the rant, some of my pool work is an hour drive away. changing a one trip job to a four trip job because of a petty, pig-headed bureaucrat gets my goat. the CBO's not gonna pay for my extra six hours of drive time.

safety is job #1. be safe, bond tight, don't let the lightning bug bite.

One thing I did spend some time on was the "lug on the ladder cup" deal and the inspectors are right. The pool guys, and perhaps even some ECs are not installing the wire properly in the molded lug and that is why inspectors want a bolted lug added. The wire is not supposed to wrap around the screw in the cup, it just lays in the groove on both sides and gets clamped by the screw.

I ended up with 5 inspections on my pool. The structural guy does a pool steel and a deck/screen cage footer steel. You get electrical on each of those too.
The electrical inspector does the final/safety.
I was far beyond the code on my bonding so I didn't have any real problems. I ran a ring in the deck steel and 6 radials out to the screen cage. I got a deal on the materials, labor was free. ;-)

By shutting off the individual breakers in the panel, then turning them back on until the GFI trips....Pretty easy

Scott it is not so easy if the trip is the result of the total leakage current and not one defective piece of a equipment.

Bob

Hi,
Thanks again for the replies. I did not pull a permit for any work on the pool other than setting a panel, connecting the pump and heat, supplying a couple outlets and installing 4 coach lights. This work is clearly spelled out in my contract. My liability is only for work I do.

If I on a job and run temp power for the site then some idiot comes along and fries himself by jerry rigging something, I am not liable. My insurance company has a team of lawyers that will back me up I am sure. They wont pay a claim that easy.

As for the inspector, I will gladly inform him of the work I did. If I am liable/responsible for that wire...then I have to be compensated for that...so far I do not have an agreement that covers that work. I dont do any work over $500 without a signed contract.

I will find out today what they did about changing the wire. I advised the homeowner and he was supposed to let the pool guy know that I will not connect it.

I dont want to get into any legal scraps with anyone.

-regards

Mustang

Hi,
I forgot to respond to this comment:

"IMO, running the bond, pulling the lights, etc. are favors the pool contractor does for the electrician so the electrician can complete a pool in one trip. treat them as if an employee had done the work. correct the mistakes, charge for it if you can, gently teach the contractor and move on."


I apprciate your comments but respectfully disagree. I do not want anybody doing these type "favors" for me. The idea that someone would go out and involve me in a contract without first consulting with me is not doing me any favors and I would not be a party to this type of business practice. I do not know these folks and have asked them to do nothing for me.

By doing these favors they are taking work from me and doing work illegally if you ask me. You cant do electrical work in my state without a license and if you are an apprentice you need a license too and you have to go to school.

These pool guys need to leave the electrical work to electricians or they need to carry a masters license/contractors license.

I warned the homeowner in the beginning that there would be some electrical work involved with the pool and asked if he wanted me to include that in my proposal...hes commented that the pool guy said he would take care of it...he took care of it all right..

-regards

Mustang

Hi,
Spoke to the AHJ and they said that as long as the conductor was insulated they would accept it.

I guess that solves that.

GFI protection only on individual ckt.

thanks for the replies.

-regards

Mustang

As many folks pointed out this should be solid but Your Mileage May Vary. Evidently the pool guy and the AHJ have an understanding. ... or perhaps we have a misunderstanding about what this wire is.
The "insulated" #8 that may be stranded is the wire from the forming shell to the Junction box for a wet niche inside a PVC raceway. Maybe someone has decided that is also any other wire from the forming shell. The reason this wire is supposed to be insulated is it runs through pool water for most of it's length. The raceway from a wet niche to the Jbox is underwater up to the water level. That is why we pot the niche end and pot the box if it isn't 8" above maximum water level.

Hi,
Thanks for the rplies. I guess the AHJ doesnt mind #8 stranded for the bonding portion...they tied the wet niche to this.

What is POTTING? Is this where you solder?

What do you mean my "Mileage" may vary? You lost me there..

-regards

Mustang

[This message has been edited by mustangelectric (edited 11-02-2004).]

Hi,
I am just wondering if I have any liability left when the inspector gives an installation that does not meet the code his approval/acceptance? I know that the inspector has no liability because it says so on the permit.

Since the installation done by the pool guy does not conform to the NEC by them using a #8 stranded conductor to ground and bond the steel and the wet niche lights, what would my liability be? I am not connecting this wire but they will undoubtedly do it.

I know the AHJ can request certain things but I think they must only verify that the installation meets the NEC.

I am not saying that (the inspector) is wrong but the NEC clearly says SOLID

I appreciate any replies..

-regards

Mustang