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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
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(4) Claim: AFCIs do not protect against ground faults, high-resistance contacts and glowing contacts.

Finding: AFCIs on the market do protect against ground faults. While these AFCIs may not directly detect some electrical arcing and glowing that can occur at high-resistance contacts and other connection points, the devices respond to secondary arcing and leakage currents to the ground that result from degraded insulation between conductors in proximity to the incipient fault condition.
Then UL revised the AFCI standard and the NEC is requiring the use of combination AFCIs for no reason???????????????? There is no technical justification for these changes??????????????
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
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Joined: Aug 2002
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John:

Long time no talk [Linked Image]

I saw AFCIs in the big orange well over 2 years ago (Clifton store).

I don't know exactly why they had them, since NJ excluded them.

As to "fire detectors", how many times do we hear on the news that a house burnt down and "there were no smoke detectors in the house." This is especially true with the elderly, poor, etc. What about Carbon Monixide detectors? I know lots of people without them. I have 3 in my house.

Just how much circuitry is squeezed into those things? There are plenty of products chock full of electronics that cost less than the price of them.

Just my 2¢.

P. S. How many of you pros out there have actually used AFCIs and can comment on your experiences (nuisance tripping, etc.)?

I seen GFCI receptacles that trip before the circuit breaker--those things, IMHO, are great. (I realize that GFCIs and AFCIs are different animals.)

[This message has been edited by ThinkGood (edited 04-23-2004).]

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 201
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Then UL revised the AFCI standard and the NEC is requiring the use of combination AFCIs for no reason???????????????? There is no technical justification for these changes??????????????
Don, The UL standard has not been revised. There are several different types of AFCIs and they have separate listings (I am sure that it will be quite confusing).

I posted the following in the MH forum:

Panel 2 has accepted the requirement to put AFCI protection for all 15 and 20 ampere circuits in a panelboard whenever it is replaced in an existing home. It has not accepted the requirement to put AFCI protection for all 15 and 20 ampere circuits in a new home.

The vote in the panel was indecisive in that there were a couple of abstentions and 2/3 of the members were not achieved. At this point, it is unknown whether or not the above requirements will get the 2/3 vote required to make it into the Code. If it does, it will require a higher level of protection for a one month old home if a panelboard is replaced or added than it will for a new home.

In addition, the AFCI protection will have to go to the "combination type" in 2008. The combination type will detect series faults. For what it is worth, the parallel faults have to exceed 75 amperes for the present AFCI breakers to "see" the fault and open the circuit.


Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 201
Member
Sorry, please let me butt in one more time.

UL has a the standard for the combination device but the P&S outlet device will not be acceptable for the required circuits unless conduit is run to the first outlet . . . , Cutler-Hammer and Square D both have devices and they are listed, I believe. Siemens is close to having a device on the market, but I do not know about the listing. A Korean company is also about there. [Linked Image]


Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
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This is a sample AFCI that was sent to me after I attended an Electrical Meeting in October.

SK5471M - QO® Arc-D-tect©
Circuit Breaker and Arc-fault Circuit Interrupter
20 A 1 Pole

[Linked Image from nachi.org]
[Linked Image from nachi.org]
[Linked Image from nachi.org]


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,081
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Thanks! That answered my question about the "guts" inside.

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 597
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It is interesting to me to note the difference in the size of the main IC. The IC shown in the photo of the Square D sample is 10x the size of the chip in the Eaton breaker that I saw in Minneapolis.

Joe, do you know if the Square D unit you posted is the branch circuit / feeder type or the combination type?

Al


Al Hildenbrand
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,749
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Quote
SK5471M - QO® Arc-D-tect©
Circuit Breaker and Arc-fault Circuit Interrupter
20 A 1 Pole

Al

I believe the the label here identifies this as an overcurrent protective device and AFCI only, so this one is not also a GFCI.

Do you remember how many vendors at the meeting were showing the AFCI's?


Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 201
Member
Joe, a combination type is not an AFCI/GFCI type although that type is made. A combination type will protect against series arcs and will protect extension cords. The combination type is not on the market yet. [Linked Image]


Charlie Eldridge, Indianapolis Utility Power Guy
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 183
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It looks like both the hot and neutral go thru the current transformer (red coil on the right), so it could be a GFCI as well.

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