ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Proposed definition of Kitchen

rat4spd - Yes

Gwz - NO

Modern refrigerators have 3 prong (grounded) plugs. 250.114(3)(a) requires these appliances to be grounded. Installing a GFCI receptacle to replace the 2-wire receptacle feeding this appliance would be a violation if no equipment ground is present. An equipment ground wire or a new circuit should be run to this receptacle.

Curt

now that do rasie my consering about commercal units in kitchens yeah bob i can understand that point using the gfci's it do help alot and i work in few commercal kitchen also we have to run gfci's but not for fridges if they are hard wired type but i feel i am in bind for hard wires appliances in commercal locations but for cord attchments applince yeah yeah that make sense but a catch what if electric range have top burner going full tilt and the water in pot decied to boil over like crazy and get the burner pot filled with water and have increased pontial chance to get shocked what ever the voltage at the burner connetion is at ( one stove i work on is 480 volts ) but i wish there is a way for ground falut inturpper set up for hevey commercal applicnes but for home appactions like friges i know most have 3 wires but i see quite few old one still run on 2 wires but alot of them are phasing out now hey don thanks for pointing it out on 250.114 for 2 wires. ( sorry for short delay i have to translated for myself) also don there is anything related to the nec for hard wired applinces required to use gfci for commercal area ???


merci marc

As usual a terribly vague definition. I know there were a bunch of submittals for this one and they are going with this? Typical NEC fasion. I just made some sandwiches for the kids on my dining room table. This area was used to prepare food. GFCI is now required. I just popped some popcorn in the little microwave down in the family room. Food was prepared in this area. GFCI now required. How about adding a few more words to make it clear such as "permanantly installed cooking appliance" or "where a sink is installed". You could also have a requirement under the other than dwelling unit requirements that specifically states the requirements for a break room.

Don,


Are you talking about the cord or the circuit feeding it?

406.3(D) would seem to allow the use of a GFCI for replacement of a device on a two wire circuit and it does not say except for refrigerators.

If all the items in 250.114 are not allowed to be plugged into an outlet installed as allowed by 406.3(D), that would make 406.3(D) useless, as how would I know where someone might plug in any of those items listed in 250.114?

I am confused.

Bob

Bob -
Yes, section 406.3(D) does permit the use of a GFCI for replacement of a device on a 2-wire circuit.

However - there is a caveat - you must mark the GFCI & any other down-line receptacles "No Equipment Ground"....this is fine for those devices/appliances that do not DEMAND a grounded circuit.

Section 250.114 gives a list of equipment that MUST be grounded...in other words, this equipment must be on a Grounded Circuit (just because you have a 3-prong ungrounded receptacle on a GFCI does not make it grounded)...so, in these instances (i.e. 250.114), you cannot get away with using the ungrounded GFCI to provide you with a 3-prong ungrounded receptacle.

I hope I didn't make that more confusing.

dana1028

No not more confusing, thank you.

I do understand that the GFCI does not create a ground.

However I find it unlikely that the average homeowner will understand the label and not plug in a one of the things on the list.

It was my understanding that allowing the GFCI replacement was to protect the user from faults to the case of what ever they plug in, 3 wire cord or not the GFCI will trip if any power does not return even with out a ground.

If I can not plug any three wire devices into this GFCI what is the point of changing out the 2 wire outlet?

As they will not allow you to replace a non-grounding outlet with a standard grounding type and label that no equipment ground, this leads me to believe they intend 3 wire plugs to be used in the GFCI outlets.

Still confused, Bob

Too bad Martha Stewart, the ultimate kitchen queen, is unavaiable for comment....

I"m not suggesting anyone violate 250.114.

But would installing a gfci recep for a refrige or window ac unit in the case of an older home with 2 wire romex not be better than the "adapters" I usually see?

I find these 2 to 3 wire adapters in older homes all the time. Refridge's and ac units are routinely plugged in to them.

In the case of elderly folks on a fixed income,faced with a major expense,(for them) would some protection not be better than none from a practical standpoint?

Russell

Doing what is best for the customer is something the NEC will never grasp Russell

We EC's toss that coin every day don't we?

Meanwhile, have you ever seen this disclaimer on any adapters.....


Is there a batterymarch park response to all those being sold (other than rewire your entire home) ??

Have i overlooked a CSPC public notice?

~S

Bob - gotcha - you're confused because 406.3(D) tells you how you can create an ungrounded 3-prong receptacle....and 250.114 says you can't use it for anything you'd ever want to use it for.

Here's the salvation - 250.114 starts out with an Exception:

"Listed tools...shall not be required to be grounded where protected by a system of double insulation or its equivalent."

FYI - virtually any tool/piece of equipment you'd ever want to plug into your ungrounded 3-prong plug [406.3D] falls into this category. ...this includes your refrigerators, freezers, air conditioners, blah, blah, blah.

The purpose of 250.114 is to prevent the UNLISTED, Non-dbl. insulated equipment from being used on an ungrounded 3-prong receptacle system.

250.114 creates an appliance 'performance' criteria so mfr's. do not make unlisted equipment. The only way the equipment discussed in 250.114 is going to get listed is to be double insulated....

So...you are in fact allowed to create your 406.3(D) receptacle outlets and they can be used by virtually any modern equipment.

Now - where did I get my information? I took a college code class - the instructor said so. UL reps also took the class and concurred with what he said.

God, I hope I didn't put my foot in my mouth.

[This message has been edited by dana1028 (edited 06-01-2003).]