ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues AFCI's Are Here to Stay!

OK you have convinced me it's all just a conspiracy to empty our pockets.

But wait if it is required, all of us will be including them in the bidding. I could become part of the conspiracy and make some money when I mark them up. What a country

yes Bob,
one could live a fairly isolated existance here and still realize capatalism and conspiracy are not exactly exclusive in corporate America.

yet we are rather desensitized by events of late, so what is one questionable widget right?

a 30% markup, and a round for the house!

Sparky,
I really am trying to see the negative aspects of going ahead with the New Widget.

How do you feel about OCPDs they add a price to the house and they might not work every time.

How about smoke detectors, is this another marketing scam, adds price to the house but it may not help you escape a fire.

What is it about this new widget that is so wrong, will it hurt anyone, other then adding lets say $200.00 to the price of the house, with the prices of houses now that does not seem like it would price anyone out of a house.

I don't think any of us believes that they would send us those trade magazines for free if it was not biased, but you can have a bias and still be right.
Bob

you may recall that I had a very horrendus experience with AFCIs a while back. I do NOT care if the are required or not I WILL NOT WARRENT them. All my proposals so state.
That will be my policy untill the companies that make them pay me for the service calls that they cause. All of them will replace the AFCIs at the parts house without problem if you were the one who purchased it. But they will not pay for your labor or other costs.
I have had several service calls from very unhappy customers of other contractors about problems with them. Sometimes I was able to find a reason the breaker would trip and other times not. Untill a proven reliable AFCI tester is availble, a lot of time is wasted trying to find a fault in a circuit that works without any evidence of a problem untill an AFCI is installed.
Most customers
are not going to pay for no results.
Replacing the AFCI with a real C/B is what they want.
Convincing them that a much more expensive item that cost them money and aggravation is better for them than a cheaper item that works is almost impossible. It is also a sure way for them to call some one else. After all they called me when another contractors warrenty was still in effect.

well Bob.
I don't see much backup here.
I've argued smoke detection for years, with little to no acknoledgement from HI's, dizzy real estate hens, or insurance companies.

i'm not going to argue the efficy of any safety device in this thread, i'm tired of it,
because since 99' i've been 'point man' for AFCI's here. Imagine what it's like to have to advocate these while most of your competition is blowing it off due to lack of enforcement (whom cannot come to terms with the issue itself.)

So, in such an inequitable trade it amounts nothing more than a load of hot air for the rural majority.

yes, we went head over heals for AFCI's in Vermont 4 yrs ago, with much realted ado such as nesparky alludes.

It's no fun......

my point here is simply the capatalism inherent in the safety biz here.

and safety is a BIG BIZ brother, fear sells better than any statitical study ever will.

safety sits on the scales of commerce opposite risk, and fear tips the scales in it's favor with little rebuttal.

i cannot contine without political reference to the latter, which would be inappropriate here, i'll assume you understand...

yrs
~Steve



[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-26-2003).]

Steve,

Keep on doing what you're doing, you obviously care a lot and that is refreshing to see.

I agree that safety stuff is Big Biz and as soon as something has "OSHA approved" on it the cost gets crazy.

We work in different environments, here where I work I feel the playing field is level (more or less)

I work for a large company so when I have to go back to replace bad devices it is not money from my pocket so I do not feel the pain some of you do. We also can bring a lot of pressure on the supply house to somehow make it right as far as our lost time, better price on whatever we are having them bid on.

Bob

nesparky,
I have had no complaints from customers, and neither have the electricians I've talked with, about the AFCIs that we have installed so far.

Is it possible that the problems you are seeing are circuit deficiencies, and the AFCIs are doing what they are designed to do?

Ed

yes Bob,
it's frustrating to be the 'good doobie' here, thanks for understanding ....


~Steve

I have had some problems with AFCIs during construction in that many power tools such as drills and power planers cause them to trip. I have also had problems on circuits that have had low voltage lighting.

I do however like concept of what they are intended to do. I think the technology needs more time to work out the quirks.

The concept is a good one, however the support is not there, niether in terms of enforcement, tech support, or the supply house.

Just yesterday i had to once again relive the tired old 'why does my wet-vac trip the AFCI' bit.

The circuit is pristine spanking new.....

Likewise, lightning strikes and voltage surges are trashing panels full of these.

Would you like to be the one to tell your customer s/he needs $400 worth of breakers that they grugingly agreed to in the first place?


You see, many have only been exposed to this for a year......your turn will come

trust me

[This message has been edited by sparky (edited 01-26-2003).]