ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Switch Loops

Don:
I agree with your last post.
As a comment only, doesn't it seem like a lot of energy to expend to possibly save a few cents, if that?
The comment is not ment to be derogatory, just my observation.
HotLine1
John

14 ga. wire = 15 amp. The circuit breaker, NOT any specific load, determines the circuit size. Here is one basic difference between an electrician and a plumber. If the circuit breaker is 20 amp, you must use #12 or larger wire. Period.

John,
You can't make that statement. In motor power circuits, the load does determine the wire size and the OCPD will be much larger then what would normally be used for that size wire.
Don

After having this discussion several times here and elsewhere, I have always and still do vote no #14.

Hello,


I was under the impression that the lighting in the bathroom could be on the lighting circut and therefore did not fall under the 20 amp rule which applies to the dedicated bathroom receptacle circut.

Resquapt 19: I was simply paraprhasing NEC 240.4, which says "conductors...shall be protected...in accordance with their ampacities." Yes, I realise that there are some code-compliant scenarios where you are allowed to vary, and these are listed as exceptions to 240.4 (2002).
Perhaps I assume too much, but it seems to me that someone asking about #14 wire isn't likely to have even heard of tap rules, etc.
Since everybody seems to be doing some sort of electric work these days, and they tend to think like plumbers (and size according to the load), I try to convince people that #14 does't really exist- since there is invariably a 20-amp breaker on the circuit.
I also note that there are many appliances common in homes today that draw uncomfortably near 15 amps: hair driers, microwaves, power tools, space heaters, etc.
So I try to keep it simple.

john,
you do assume to much and how do you know what everybody else is doing?

john, #14 does exist and just because you want to save the world by preventing anyone from using a UL listed product, you should realize that there are more #14 wires on 20 AMP circuits than there are letters in the code book...connected by electricians, plumbers, carpenters homeowners and other people who you probably dont like either

ifa person ask a question it doesnt imply anything other than someone asking a question.

if you are intent on making your point about the way a plumber thinks compared to the way a electrician thinks, i say to you that are a bigot, prejudice and i wouldnt consider anything you have to say to be valid or carry any weight. i probably forgot more than you will ever know about the code and tap rules mate...bug off...i know lots of plumbers that would probably kick your a-- if you were man enough to say that to their face....

now that is how you speak your mind john

Frodo- Didn't mean anything personal, just stating facts.
Plumbers size things according to the load. We do not- we size according to the fuse/ circuit breaker, as the cited NEC says. This is because of the possibility of a short circuit; we want the wire to not be damaged before the fuse blows. If, on the other hand, a water pipe breaks, the leak will in no way damage the remaining pipe!
Just because a lot of people do things wrong does not make them right. Just because you can 'get away' doing something does not change that error into wisdom.
A large role is played in the NEC by science, engineering, and loss data. While, for any "rule" there may be some circumstance that justifies "bending" it, these are "exceptions," usually specified by the code, and the rule is still a rule.
I believe that the use of #14, even with 15 amp protection, is foolish in today's home. The second paragraph (90-1b) of the code admits that simply complying with the NEC may not be adequate for good service or future expansion." The next paragraph (90-1c) notes that the code is neither a design specification or instruction manual. In other words, it is very possible to do something that is foolish, but still "legal."
Now, if a man cannot be bothered to learn, and insists that his "feeling" is somehow wiser than the sum of everyone else's experiences, then there is no hope for him.
Putting #14 wire anywhere on a 20 amp circuit is simply wrong. Do it, and you're a fool. Undersize your circuits for reasonably expected loads, and you're possibly a legal fool.
Now, it is possible that I'm mis-informed. Perhaps someone could explain to me the virtues of undersized wired, and over-fused circuits?

I am not undrstanding why # 14 protected by a 15 amp breaker is "foolish" I do this everyday and ALL of the homes in this region are done this way. So far so good.

I agree with those who are tapping #14 onto #12 for lighting circuits. From a very practical point, if you are running a wire to one light fixture, you can be assured that the load will not exceed the wattage of the light bulb. So we are talking about 100 or 150 watts. Where is the harm? #14 on a 15 amp breaker should be fine for receptacles as well. I wouldn't run to a receptacle from a #12 - 20 amp circuit and tap a #14 to it, though, because the receptacle could see more than 15 amps connected load.