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1 members (Scott35),
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 141
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I worked over 25 years as a non-degreed engineer designing electrical distribution systems for a utility. My son will graduate from Tulane with an EE in December. He dosen't care for computer engineering but likes power. He has taken all the power courses Tulane offers. Last Summer I had him drilling holes, pulling wire and making up connections. When he griped about getting zapped with 120 I said "Son, that's valuable experiance you will never get in college. Just because you scored 1550 on the SAT don't think you can design a job better than a tradesman." I don't know where he is going with his career but I hope he will be taking a little wisedom anong with the all the knowledge with him.
The only NEC he knows is the little bit I taught him.
bob
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Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 680
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In Maine one has to be a PE in order to provide engineering services.Someone else may do the work on the calculations but it must be signed off by a PE.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,382 Likes: 7
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Gentlemen:
Scott35, congrats on EIT, LOL with the test to PE
After reading the thoughts of the others above this post, I have to add.
Over the years, I met a few EE's that were great, PE's too.
The rest all seemed to lack what some of us refer to as common sense, aka field experience. (It may look great on paper, but how the h#ll is it to be built.)
came accross a few that had to be "drive-by" as the "detail" on the drawings didn't exist within the shopping center. Had instances where the "electric closet" was 14" deep x 4ft long. Bad equip placement, excessive feeder loading, bad panel schedules.
I don't want to compose a novel of individual situations, and like I said, there are "good" engineers.
With my inspectors hat on, I do plan review and field inspections. The lack of information on E drawings is proliferating. It seems like "locate the devices, panel(s, lights"; print it, submit a bill for services rendered. Hey, where's the circuitry, panel schedule, etc.???
Well that's enough said.
John
John
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3
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As one of those few EE trained in power, I would agree with many of the comments. My background is primarily marine electrical systems where the engineering requirements are far more extensive than most land-based projects. When I first started working in facilities (2 yrs ago) I had little knowledge of the NEC with the exception of a few articles which are referenced by marine standards; motor and transformer protection for example. I was amazed at the details to which the NEC dictates how a building is to be wired. Nothing like this exists in the marine world. I was also amazed at how little information is expected to be shown on electrical plans. My facilities associates stated "Why bother? All the details are in the NEC." Others stated they didn't want the liability of putting too much detail in the plans. In my humble opinion, the NEC was written to make everything cookbook because, unfortunately, there are many installers who have no training in basic electrical theory. I get extremely frustrated when the NEC or some building inspector requires me to oversize some component for the simple reason that the assumption is it won't get installed properly.
As for EE's training in the NEC, it is not offered in colleges for the simple reason that most EE's don't design electical systems for buildings. Nor do colleges teach students how to design systems for airplanes, ships, or trains. All of these are specalized areas that a EE choses after graduation. I would greatly appreciate a good course in the electrical design aspects of the NEC. While I didn't have a clue want color an equipment ground wire should be ( I would have guessed green), I really don't care. I know what it's there for and when I want one. I'll leave it to the electrician to pick the right color. I could give a great seminar on basic electrical theory, including sizing conductors, breakers, fault currents, breaker coordination studies, load analysis, etc. But please don't ask me to install the stuff.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,498 Likes: 1
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MarineEE makes a very good point. Here (Sweden, Europe) engineers aren't allowed to do wiring, for good reasons. Being an engineer in the wrong field I have only taken the basic course in electrical engineering. Although it contained great theory on motors, voltage drops, 3-phase systems and so on but nothing on how to build systems in real life. Obviously, if you have taken more courses you will know the
basic electrical theory, including sizing conductors, breakers, fault currents, breaker coordination studies, load analysis,
However, wiring is for electricians. I see no reason for having an engineer design a "household voltage" system for a normal building. An electrican will do a better job. Non-standard systems or voltages are different. Just because you have a M.Sc. in engineering, it doesn't mean you know everything. In reality, you often haven't got a clue to what people are talking about but you have to look like you're an expert. (By now I'm rather good at hiding my ignorance ![[Linked Image]](https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/wink.gif) ) [This message has been edited by C-H (edited 11-18-2002).]
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 209
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OK it is my turn to beat this dead horse. I am going to try to be brief, but I don't think it will work.
I feel very strongly that an engineer and an electrician are a TEAM. As has been stated before. An engineer goes to school for 4 years to learn about electricity and an electrician goes through a 4 year apprenticeship to learn about installing electricity. It is two different knowledge bases.
I have to humbly admit that I have a degree in Industrial Engineering (head hung low). My first job was as a facility supervisor and I have been in that field for 11 of the past 14 years. I have taken care of the building and run the maintenance department. I was completely green and knew nothing about anything. I have learned trial by fire. It turns out that I have a pretty good mechanical ability (Who'd a thunk it?) I was in a good position because I could talk nuts and bolts with the guys, and talk to the engineers about their drawings and what was wrong with them.
When you get everybody on the same page and working together it all turns out good. I would never do what the guy did to NJwirenut. I always wanted the guys to look at things and tell me if there is something wrong. As I always told them, If I tell you how to do the job then you will stop thinking and eventually turn your mind off. However I will be there for advice and to answer any and all questions.
Spary, NEVER feel outranked by an EE. You two just know two different areas of electricity. You may not be able to do what he can do, but then again he cannot do what you can do.
Much more to say but I have rattled on long enough. I will know get off my soap box.
Scott
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 176
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My congrats to you too, Scotts. I work with one PE who told me that the pe exam was a piece of cake compared to the Masters exam. But she is pretty smart, and could easily teach the NEC. Would be boring, because she doesn't seem to know how use stories, etc, as a learning tool.
I work as an electrical designer for an engineering company. There may be several reasons why the plans go out without planchecks. We are very schedule driven and when it is due out, the PM says "GO", we "GO" out, whether ready or not. I don't agree with that attitude. Sometimes the information is not in from the equipment suppliers, so it is not designed properly, only from an estimate.
I have worked with several registered PE's during my career. And some I would not let engineer anything. Some we don't even let close to CAD (we don't want it messed up). Some are better in the theory. Some are even good at both the practical side and theory. Most learn about the NEC after graduation. I've always tried to get it drawn so that it could be built by a contractor. If it needs a detail for me to understand, then it needs it for the contractor to understand. Engineering Supervision? Well, most of our PE's are Master Electrician Licensed. As with the PE, it only means they passed a test. And that's what it is all about, taking a test.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 794 Likes: 3
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I'm one of those infamous electrical engineers. And in college no course
work on the NEC. I did have classes
on electromagnetic devices like
transformers, motors, generators and
such. Maxwell's equasions and other
physics. Pretty much all theory.
AS I gather, electricians are trained
to create electrical systems that, as
a first priority protect people from
shock and fire hazards, in such a way
that if you do have a failure, that
the rest of the system is built to
protect people. In that light, the
code will make sense to electrical
engineers. Grounding rules, requiring
all wire connections to be done inside
boxes (so if a connection fails it
doesn't shower sparks onto the wood
inside the wall setting it on fire),
color codes (so other electricians can
understand what wire does what by inspection)
and other things that turn out not to
work that well (aluminium wireing) can
be avoided.
I've done simple wiring tasks in my house
(installing more outlets in the new
kitchen we had put in, the inspector
said the only thing I missed was the
green pigtail grounding wires you need
to connect to the metal boxes (I used
"BX" cable (I know "BX" is the wrong term,
forgot what the modern version is called)
and to the green ground screw on the
outlets. He made me put them in and
after that I passed his "rough" inspection.
Must be a newer NEC rule the books in the
library didn't have. Makes sense, you
are then not depending on two #6 steel
screws to pass a fault current to ground).
As for something like installing a new
panel, I think I'd get a licensed electrician
to do that. I'd need to have his knowledge
of the code and his experience to do it
right, and as I don't have that, have him
do it so it is safe and meets code. Oh,
I'd tell him that I'd like to have a
new circuit for a dryer, another for
central air, and some more branch circuits,
but let him figure out the right way to
make it happen.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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i thought some of you engineers might get a laugh here..... YOU MIGHT BE AN ENGINEER IF...
The only jokes you receive are through e-mail.
At Christmas, it goes without saying that you will be the one to find the burnt-out bulb in the string.
Buying flowers for your girlfriend or spending the money to upgrade your RAM is a moral dilemma.
Everyone else on the Alaskan cruise is on deck peering at the scenery, and you are still on a personal tour of the engine room.
In college you thought Spring Break was a metal fatigue failure.
The salespeople at Circuit City can't answer any of your questions.
You are always late to meetings.
You are at an air show and know how fast the skydivers are falling.
You bought your wife a new CD ROM for her birthday.
You can quote scenes from any Monty Python movie.
You can type 70 words a minute but can't read your own handwriting.
You can't write unless the paper has both horizontal and vertical lines.
You comment to your wife that her straight hair is nice and parallel.
You forgot to get a haircut ... for 6 months.
You go on the rides at Disneyland and sit backwards in the chairs to see how they do the special effects.
You have Dilbert comics displayed anywhere in your work area.
You have ever saved the power cord from a broken appliance.
You have more friends on the Internet than in real life.
You have never bought any new underwear or socks for yourself since you got married.
You have used coat hangers and duct tape for something other than hanging coats and taping ducts.
You know what http:// actually stands for.
You look forward to Christmas only to put together the kids' toys.
You own one or more white short-sleeve dress shirts.
You see a good design and still have to change it.
You spent more on your calculator than on your wedding ring.
You still own a slide rule and you know how to work it.
You think that when people around you yawn, it's because they didn't get enough sleep.
You wear black socks with white tennis shoes (or vice versa).
You window shop at Radio Shack.
You're in the back seat of your car, she's looking wistfully at the moon, and you're trying to locate a geosynchronous satellite.
You know what the geosynchronous satellite function is.
Your checkbook always balances.
Your laptop computer costs more than your car.
Your wife hasn't the foggiest idea what you do at work.
Your wristwatch has more computing power than a 300Mhz Pentium.
You've already calculated how much you make per second.
You've ever tried to repair a $5 radio.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 209
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Sparky, Some of those certainly hit close to home. I remember telling jokes with other engineering students when one of us would look at around and say "you know we realy are geeks!" ![[Linked Image]](https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/biggrin.gif) LOL Scott
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Posts: 57
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