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#79943 02/20/02 02:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
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Brendan,
Even though I'm still not convinced that AFCIs will do what we've been told that they will do, I don't have a problem with the new construction requirement. The problem is in the areas where the AFCI requirement is being enforced on service panel changes. In these cases, if there is multiwire branch circuits, the contractor is limited to one manufacturer and I don't believe a code is legally permitted to require the installation of a product made by only one manufacturer.
Also based on the 2002 code wording, I'm not sure if the rule is enforceable anywhere. I know the intent, but the rule only requires protection for 125 volt rated "outlets". Outlets don't have a voltage rating. The "outlet" point on the wiring system where the receptacle is connected or the light fixture is connected. This needs some wording changes for the 2005 code, then again, maybe enough people will figure out that the AFCI requirement was put into the code based on "Enron" type statistics and the requirement will be deleted.

PS: good to see you back in the forum.
Don(resqcapt19)


Don(resqcapt19)
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#79944 02/20/02 02:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 35
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I saw a flier from GE that they have a two pole device also. I'm not sure what your comment about Enron has to do with AFCI, but I can tell you:
1. Electrical fires are a problem (43,000 a year, and arcing faults are a major contributor to those fires.
2. We (the company that invented and has the patent on the first circuit breaker) was the first to develop and market a technology that can dramatically reduce the incidence of electrical arcing.
and:
3. Independent organizations concerned with safety (Consumer Products Safety Commission, National Fire Protection Agency, National Association of State Fire Marshals, Missouri Burn Center, etc.) have endorsed the technology.

#79945 02/20/02 08:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 449
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I would like someone to tell me if an AFCI breaker is supposed to trip when an electric blanket that is plugged into an AFCI protected circuit developes an arcing fault. Or a portable space heater. Or an extension cord ran under a throw rug. Or any other cord connected equipment that developes a break in a conductor that begins arcing. I have set these situations up in my shop and have not had an AFCI breaker trip under any of these conditions. It is my opinion that these types of arcing are what cause the majority of home fires that are caused by arcing. Most fires(again in my opinion)that start in bedrooms of homes are not electrical at all. They are smoking related.
I just haven't had anyone who's been willing to tell me that an AFCI will see and interrupt an arcing fault in an electric blanket before a non-AFCI breaker would.(parrallel fault).

#79946 02/21/02 12:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
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And of those 43,000 fires, according to a statement made by Mr. Clarey of Cutler-Hammer, AFCI protection could be expected to prevent about 6200 of them if all dwelling unit circuits had AFCI protection. (Comment 2-68 in the '98ROC.) Fire data for 1996 indicates that 13% of dwelling unit fires originated in the bedroom. This would mean that the 2002 code requirement for AFCIs could be expected to prevent about 806 fires per year or about 2% of the total dwelling uint fires.
Don(resqcapt19)


Don(resqcapt19)
#79947 02/21/02 08:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,056
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I don't understand the hesitancy to accept AFCIs. As a life safety device, I would be willing to accept any proven numbers(lives saved) as a good place to start. In the future, the technology will improve, the cost will decrease and the requirements will expand.
What are the basic arguments opposing these devices?

#79948 02/21/02 11:24 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 35
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Don, the analogy I would use here is automobile seat belts. It is unfortunate that there were thousands of people that died in accidents in older cars after seat belts were mandated. It is the nature of safety codes that they cannot cure all existing unsafe conditions. There are, unfortunately, about a billion circuits out there that will not get this protection for 10-15-20 years or more. By changing code, we've started down a long path of providing increased fire protection. Over the next 15-25 years before those breakers are changed out, we could lose as many as 10,000 folks in residential electrical fires (400 a year for 25 years). That total is more than three times the number of folks that died in the World Trade Center. However, since these folks die one or two at a time, this does not get the attention that it warrants.

It is unrealistic to change out all existing circuits at once, but if we never start, the conditions will remain the same. When GFCI was added to the code, it was not mandated for existing conditions. There are still homes today that are unprotected by GFCI, and there are people that are electrocuted in those homes. When I added an outdoor circuit to my 50-year-old home, I added a GFCI breaker. That breaker saved my four-year-old daughter's life. If the electrical code had never changed, it would not have been standard operating procedure for me to add that protection, and my daughter would not be here today.

#79949 02/21/02 05:20 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,148
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Redsy,
My only point is that I don't believe they will prevent anywhere near the number of fires that we been told that they will. I do believe that they will save some lives, but I also believe that the majority of dwelling unit fires are caused by series arcing and AFCIs are not very effective in detecting series arcs.
Don(resqcapt19)


Don(resqcapt19)
#79950 02/22/02 07:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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Member
After 4 calls, i have found one supplier that has a 2 wk lead time on an AFIT, they are around $60.
GE carriers were stumped ( and so was I ) as to a part #
Having been on this 'AFIT' quest now for a few weeks, The 'supplier' feedback has usually been fuzzy. Basically a supplier will not stock what is not frequently sold
( niether will I )
The manufacture's follow suit here.
Either party has had a good laugh at state's ammending codes to require a widget barely on the market. ( @ our expense...)
The other day I installed 13 AFCI's , doubling the expense of a panel upgrade.
My point is WE in the field have to justify any expense that appears as such a quantum leap in one code cycle.
Fred Flinstone will ultimatly trade notes with Barney next door , who in 98' did not pitch double for a like job, and the onus will be on the contractor.
While I'll agree with the concept's validity of AFCI protection , the specifics, stat's , and details remain fuzzy.
Even Dave Dini is responding in a 'Politically Correct' manner
(Note i'll leave out his CMP status...)
Testimonial and advocation from safety or regulating orginizations unfortunatly have little impact in the field, and the average Fred or Barney in my experience holds the contractor responsible as to performance.
All I can say is, if your not into the 02' yet, prepare yourself for public scrutiny here, it's a bear! [Linked Image]
IMO, the manufacture's should back this product 100%, no questions asked. If this is the 'glorified widget' of the electrical trade, there should be an iron clad gaurantee included that I as a contractor can pass onto my customers.

Put yer $$$$ where your marketing hype is please.

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