ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area A Disturbing Thought !!

George,

Thanks for joining in. My question (and concern) is not about the Homeowner and their own house, but the Builder, through some technicality, being able to wire a whole neighborhood full of houses because they are 'his' until he sells them.

Bill

You know this has to be a compromise. Homeowners are going to do the work themselves if they "know how", and usually without a permit. Requiring a license to do it won't change that basic fact. We all know how badly the homeowners oftentimes wire things, not to mention the small time builder that fancies himself/herself qualified to do some dinky branch circuit work. Laws are only good if they can be enforced. Until the day comes when detailed as-builts are made for residential wiring, there is no way to control who does the wiring, no way to tell what wiring was part of the original installation..once the sheet rock is covering it. Along with as-builts, there would have to be a mandatory inspection any time the house was sold, or rented, in order to know who to hang for the illegal work!

Elzappr..
ding-ding-ding!
My AHJ(s) are sooo booked up, they view some jobs from thier truck seat, motor going...
(in park, maybe....)

Bill...

[rant mode...]

Exactly what happens, no permits or inspections required. Substandard work , i.e.- no 'dedicated' circitry for instance.
This is further complicated by 'Customer Owned' service laterals
(poco wears de dark glasses..)
No requirement or certification for Home Inspectors, None also for a 'GC'....

So Yes! AFCI's probably looked like a cure-all to the powers that be here! , yet the irony is that it won't happen on many jobs!

Fallout? you betcha! banks are sending in thier 'inspectors' , buncha never-had-a-blister dudes who 'vouch' for the construction ( mostly energy code concerns)

Individuals are contesting thier mortgage lenders , defaulting on substandard work loaned on....Bona Fide tradesmen are being asked to view & document as ammo....

Montpelier ( state cap) has held some hearings & if i'm ever invited they'll probably be givin' me a rabies shot before I leave.

High voltage, I am also in Mass and I want to point out something that always seems to be brought up at code update classes. The wording for permit rquirements in the Massachusetts amendments states that any person installing electrical wiring "for hire" must take out permits.... This is always pointed out as a loophole, wiring your own house, no permit needed, installing some outlets for Aunt Jenny, no permit required. Also another point, Im sure you know this Hi V, for electricians without insurance there is a waiver on the permit application that the homeowner can sign to waive the insurance requirement. Would I sign this as homeowner? No way! By the way what area in MA are you. I work form Worcetster to Boston. Wonder if we have met.

I know that this issue goes against the grain of some, but there is something fundamentally wrong with it. To argue that the owner of the castle can do anything they want without proving some knowledge of it ignores the rights and shows no consideration for the 'innocents' that may also live there or may later live there or in close proximity.

My opinion is that, for public safety, any new construction or major renovations should be done by someone that is certified by the state or municipality (to the best of their ability) as being competant to the task and aware of the pertinent safety issues of what they are doing. If the owner wants to do something let them pass at least a basic competancy test and keep the records of who did what for the review of the Insurance Companies and any prospective buyers. I would think that any jurisdiction that does not require something along these lines is opening themselves to a big liability for ignoring public safety. I suppose though, that the way these things go, that there may be other issues that I am not aware of and things are not that simple.

[/rant]
Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-01-2002).]

In many suburban Philadelphia PA areas, Use & Occupancy Certificates are required in order to sell your home. The inspection can sometimes catch obvious electrical safety problems resulting from poor wiring practices performed by the homeowner or do-all contractor. So, it is becoming known more and more that if you don't pay now, you may have to pay later.

Redsy,

That sounds like a step in the right direction, but without it being known that some proof of competancy is expected and required the work will go on much as it has. Without imposing some requirements on this the General Public is likely to not give many things a second thought. Too many people think that replacing a Fixture, a 'Socket' or 'Plug' is such a minor thing that it can't do any harm. My opinion is that these things are what causes most of the electrical-related fires.

These new requirements should generate revenue for the municipality from fees collected and in theory, (that perfect world) people that play it by the rules should be able to get lower insurance rates that would offset their other costs. I think it could work.
What do you think?

Bill

I'd like to throw in a little bit of mud...

Here (from what I am to understand) in WV, one can do their own work, on property that they own... However, it is unclear to me whether said person must live there, or if this can be applied to "rental propety" as well, said landlord doing his own work...

Comments?

Virgil,

If a Landlord can do Electrical Work on his own property then maybe He should be asked to pay DOUBLE Insurance Premiums? I think it only makes sense.

Bill

[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 03-01-2002).]

I live in a small city in Ohio which requires no license or inspections. The only inspection would be required on a State level for schools, nursing homes, etc.
I also am a firefighter in the same city and see first hand some of the wiring mistakes after the fact most of the time.