ECN Forum Forums Code Related Discussion NEC & other Code issues Heater-Fan-Lite Combos

Here's what I was thinking about. There is only a limited space inside these things for wiring and separate cables would mean separate Neutrals would have to be run and really cram up the inside. If there was only one neutral to the unit then it would have to be inside the same cable or raceway with all the others. If the Neutrals in the unit for the 3 functions are tied together it can't be fed from more than 1 cable without being a violation. I don't know that the average person wiring these things would be aware of that.


I don't see why it couldn't be on 1 20A circuit with a 12/4+Gr MC feed to it though.

Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Addiss (edited 10-24-2001).]

I'm not inclined to add 4-wire + G cables to the stock in my van, and I don't trust my remembering to bring a length on the day that I need it.

Given a 3-function unit (fan/heat/light), have the branch circuit homerun at the switch and use a 12/3 and a 12/2 seperating the neutrals in the unit j-box (the component loads present on pigtails each with their own neutrals). The j-box is tight, though, but not impossible.

Substitute a 12/3 for the 12/2 in a 4-function unit.

Let's say the 12/2 has the light, hot and neutral. That's one circuit and it satisfies 300-3(b). Same with the 12/3 on the heat/fan. The violation of 300-3(b) comes when I don't seperate the neutrals or choose to use only one.

Al

[This message has been edited by ElectricAL (edited 10-24-2001).]

Al,

I agree. As long as the neutrals are separated properly in the unit there shouldn't be any problem. That's not what I usually see though.

Bill

According to manufacturere specifications. Heat/vent/light the three unit or the 4-unit models are just that meant to be wired as a single unit. It sounds like some of us redefine the code as we go along.
As far as the extra neutral goes, it reminds me of the ' House Doctor ' Ron Hazelwood, he was showing how to wire a ceiling fan and to include two switches, so what does he do, he runs two 2/c, instead of a 3/c. and he dead ends the extra neutral.
My point is these units are just that units, and are meant to be wired as such. To physically seperate them for convenience doesnt make the job by 'Code'. At least not in my area.

As I have previously stated, none of us know everything. I am here to learn. I have been aware of the code requirement to keep conductors in close proximity for years(surprise, I even know why we need to). However, I am an industrial E & I mechanic, and not a residential wireman. Therefore, I simply have not had to install these fixtures, and don't know the ckt. requirements. I have, however, installed and programmed VFDs and other motor control circuitry, UPS systems, process control instrumentation, and intrinsically safe and explosion-proof equipment in hazardous locations. I prefer to ask questions and offer suggestions in an environment where I won't be talked down to.

bordew,

I'm not convinced that these units are made to be wired as such exclusively. The do come with separate sockets, each with their own set of tails (B & W), so there are no modifications being made inside. I don't recall how the instructions read, but the recomendations (single cable, raceway, etc.) made may be for the purpose of simplicity and a 'can't go wrong' solution. I don't believe that I've ever seen these installed with a single cable or raceway though.


Bill

Redsy
I wasnt talking down to YOU or anyone, this is how we teach apprentices, also not to take short-ccuts and to follow the code as much as possible because as you are well aware the code is bare minimum, it is not the ultimate source.
AS contractors if we dont do it to code who will

Bill:
This is probably true, however it is a single enclosure and the recomended way is to pipe it or use greenfield. As far as i can tell the plugs inside are to facilitate removal of a bad element. ie fan or heater etc.
It is recomended for a 20 amp circuit because of the heating element.
My point was that in MY area, here in Ohio and I believe that is what I said, we must adhere to 300-3(b).
I have done it this way in new construction and snaked it through walls in old construction.

bordew,

We all want to be code compliant. I understood what you said, but am not sure that 300-3(b) means that only 1 cable or raceway is permitted as a wiring method in this instance. As I look at it it seems to be talking about circuits in the sense of 'complete circuits'. I don't see why 3 switches connected to 3 individual receptacles could not be considered 3 circuits and be allowed in separate cables or raceways. In that sense, more than one cable would not be a violation.


Bill

Now that I'm thoroughly confused...

Where does it say I can't run two ciruits?
Is it because there's only one "nameplate"?
Clue me in here...

I *never* intend to bust code... When I do, it is simply out of sheer ignorance... My 99 NEC is very dogeared, so it isn't from a lack of trying...



OK, I have to admit I haven't read the instructions for those in years... Have they really changed that much? If memory serves me correctly, I recall that the instructions for the units I install reccomend the very procedure I use... Hixson was adamant about reading instructions, so I have read them at one time! Just not recently...

Bill,
As far as wire space, I haven't noticed the capacity labelled in these, stamped or otherwise... Does the UL sticker "exempt" them as per a motor "peckerhead"?

I've found there's ample room if you use the 3" outside the box, 6" minimum rule to the fullest...



[This message has been edited by sparky66wv (edited 10-25-2001).]