ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area # of conductors in conduit

Between you and me, I sometimes rely on the electrician as a crutch. Every once in a while, a question or situation comes up but I don't know the answer. Even if I feel it's something that probably should be on the drawing, in these cases, I'll just stay silent on it and trust that the electrician knows that part of the code better than I do and will get it right

You might find some arrogant engineers, and tempers might fly whenever there's a disagreement (why else would the engineer and electrician be talking unless there's a problem? lol) but the engineers almost always have a great deal of respect for the electrians that install our projects. I certainly do! I wouldn't be on this forum otherwise And I'd like to think the respect is mutual, even as much as we're cursed!

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 02-09-2007).]

Steve I am not trying to stir up 'stuff' but I do not understand this.


Its not the engineer in my experience it will be the inspector / AHJ / Plans examiner who makes the final call on what is code and what is not code.

And I do want to point out I am not anti engineer either. We each have a job to do and like most things the more I learn what an engineer does the more I realize how much I don't know.

That said I am often more knowledgeable in the code than the engineers and many times have been the one 'blue collar' in a meeting of white collars as a code consultant. Also more than once this has resulted in complementary calls to my bosses about my ability to work together to find solutions to the problem at hand.

Well, I've had plenty of trouble calls where I go down to the jobsite and find that the electrician decided he knew more than me and had a "better" way of doing it, and ran into the exact problem I had forseen and designed around... No, sorry, you can NOT notch the flange and I'm not authorizing an impingement of shock clearance on the waveguide- I didn't spend 3 weeks working on that drawing so you could toss it aside, rip it out and do it like I told you!

Sometimes the electrian does know the better way- he/she certainly spends a lot more time on-site working than the engineer- but very often, the engineer has a very good reason for the design decisions made. Maybe there's a planned upgrade, maybe the "easy" conduit run is reserved for some HVAC ducting to be installed down the road. My name is on all the drawings, I have a phone, I have an email address, and have always been very willing to work with the electricians doing the install. 9 times out of 10, I'm not going to care if you pull 2 big cables or 4 smaller ones, so long as the [derated] ampacity matches- normally, I'll make a call based on the price sheets and go with that. That 1 time out of 10 though, I really do want you to install it like I asked- maybe we intend to splice it with some other cables down the road, maybe it's to suit the lugs on some proprietary equipment that's not on the jobsite yet. I try to usually notate cases like that on the drawing explitely for this reason. Either way, if we all communicate a little better, I think there would be a lot less bad blood and jobs would go up a lot smoother

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As for overruling the code, my experience is all at the federal level where the engineer is the AHJ and is the law; the codes are guidance, but I can overrule them as I wish. I can't speak so much for the city, but NEC and IBC give a lot of authority to the AHJs to deviate, and AHJs seems a lot more willing to allow an engineer who's assuming all liability to deviate than sign off work on their own authority.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 02-09-2007).]

Steve


I agree with you entirely, the reason a smart customer hires an engineer is IMO to think of whole picture and at times prevent the EC from looking at only their own interests.


Steve I don't doubt you in the least.

However that situation is very unusually, of the approx 60,000 ECs in the US very few work on the type of jobs that you are designing.


I have no knowledge of the IBC, it is not used here. As far as the NEC I disagree there is a lot of room for judgment by an AHJ. There are a few specific sections intentionally left up to the AHJ but the majority is not up to interpretation.

That is why many areas feel they have to amend the NEC. If an area adopts the NEC and did not amend it the AHJ can not just ignore the NEC when an engineer (or even the AHJ themselves) decides they want to do something outside the NEC.



I don't see that here and it does not sound like John or George Little see it happening either.

If an AHJ allows the deviation from the NEC based on the engineers request wouldn't that in fact open the municipality to more liability?

JMHO, Bob

[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-09-2007).]

If the city retains full liability for approving a design even if an engineer stamps a drawing, then why the hell are my insurance rates so high? Well, that was an example from my last position, before my latest promotion, when I was working more on the electronics side. I'm now a "chief engineer" of sorts, and work almost exclusively commercial-power type work on US bases (or US buildings on allied bases.) Same type work you all do, basically. And I'm still learning, I've only been doing this for a little over a year now, it will take me at least 3 or 4 more before I can start calling myself an "expert!" I have to point out that I *did* pass the Power PE exam though, which proves I'm at least capable of being competant

Look up your state/city code. VA never actually invokes NEC; NEC is merely referenced as the electrical portion of the IBC. I imagine most states are similar.

At any rate, NEC 90.2(C) and 90.4 states explicitely that AHJs can allow deviations anywhere in the code they see fit.

No, NEC actually allows exactly that. No ammendments necessary.

[This message has been edited by SteveFehr (edited 02-09-2007).]

I guess you guys simply cannot read.

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While I am an engineer, I always use the phrase "engineering is allowed. I allow anyone to do engineering.

States limit who may.

No George, we can all read, you just want to evade our request that you provide substantiation to your claims.

Now, without trying to attack us with snide remarks just post some documentation from the code adoption level that will support your statements.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 02-09-2007).]

Steve Fehr:
Now that I read you work Federal Jobs, please check my comments regarding that field:
Federal properties are not within the jurisdiction of NJ UCC. As a State Lic., municipal Inspector, I have NO authority on Federal, nor NJ State properties. State properties are under the UCC, but inspected by DCA (State employeed) Inspectors.

As to "George", he has no location in his profile, so my comments still apply to his posts. Perhaps Mr. Bill should require 'locations' in the profile?

John

quotes from some of George's previous posts.
_____________________________________________
"I am not an electrictian. I get paid to do design, engineering, and all construction except where a license is required (usally electric, plumbing, and HVAC).
No one drills holes or puts in any fasteners (that includes those MN staples) except me."
_____________________________________________
"The constitution of the State of Oklahoma requires electrical work to be done in accordance with ANY nationally recognized electrical code.
It allows anyone to do the work. Most local authorities limit the work that unlicensed people may do to property they own or are tenants at.
The assumption that a license is required to do electrical work is wrong.
I am unlicensed. I apply for electrical permits as necessary. Regardless of how the local authorities act on the permit application, I do the work."
_____________________________________________

"I used to be licensed"
_____________________________________________

(George lives near Tulsa, Oklahoma)

George, I still can't figure out what discipline of engineering you claim to be a PE in. Some other old posts make it sound like structural



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 02-09-2007).]

"How come they get kicked back out, sometimes again and again? Do the building departments just not treat the PEs with the proper reverence that they deserve?"

The building departments, are most likely scratching their heads, try to figure out where some of these guys got their seal from,
It's funny but I get better electrical prints, from mechanical engineers then I do from electrical engineers.

On the switch leg issue, I have seen switch leg conduits get so hot, you could cook an egg on them, signed, and sealed by an engineer.


Quote: I try to usually notate cases like that on the drawing explitely for this reason. Either way, if we all communicate a little better, I think there would be a lot less bad blood and jobs would go up a lot smoother

Steve, that is the way to go, it's a win win situation, when we work together.

"As to "George", he has no location in his profile, so my comments still apply to his posts. Perhaps Mr. Bill should require 'locations' in the profile?"

I agree!



[This message has been edited by LK (edited 02-09-2007).]