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SOD OFF!!!


There. Happy now?


We have several Fire Investigators on our department. However, under IL (and IIRC federal) law, C&O (Cause & Origin) is determined by the "Fire Chief, his Appointed Designee, or other competent authority as determined by the Municipality or Authority Having Jurisdiction".



Short answer? Not a lot.

Here in IL, Fire Investigators go through a series of 3 40 hour classes and examinations. Arson Investigators have the same basic classes, but are law enforcement officers. (the LE part is available to FF's for a couple of hundred extra hours of class time).

Any fatality incident automatically brings in an Investigator from the Office of the State Fire Marshal.

The training is pretty good, but it's more towards finding the location and evidence preservation that real info about electrical construction.

Only had a few real electrical origin fires.

One was an A/C unit that was spliced from a 12/3 cord to a 16/2 extension cord. The "V" pattern led right to the splice location behind the couch.

The second that pops to mind was a Christmas season fire where the family had been running space heaters in a old (1910-20's ers) house. Heavy use of extension cords under carpets as well for area and holiday lighting.

As their house was burning down, they admitted to replacing the 15 and 20 ampere fuses with 30's "because the other ones kept blowing too often".

The third I can think of was where a leak from a box for a light mounted outside (through an attic wall) was causing a fault in the old BX - the resistance was heating up the armor; eventually (over a period of days, according to one of our investigators), the truss it was laying on top of started to slowly burn, and only started to openly burn about the time we got the call for the "smell of something burning".

Good thing we got the call when we did. If they'd waited until morning, the smoke detectors would have sent them out into the -15F temperatures to watch their house burn. We were able to extinguish it with only minor damage to the soffit in the kitchen and a few gallons of water.

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 01-23-2007).]

On one hand, I do feel sorry for those folks......but on the other, I see it as natural selection at work.

Way too many people, including a lot who should know better, play fast and loose with electricity. Many times it's only property that gets burned or destroyed, but too often there's a human toll too.


That brought back to mind the fire investigation report on the MGM Grand Hotel fire in Las Vegas. I was able to download the (almost) complete fire investigation report (six very large PDF files). The cause was indeed electrical, it was faulty installation of aluminum flex conduit to a chiller for the pie display case. They go into great detail as to exactly how a few mistakes in the installation of that flex (and the condenser unit, which was under a counter) combined over a time span of years to start that fire.


Another factor mentioned in the MGM fire was that the hot air from the condensing unit was being discharged into the wood-framed void the flex and refrigerant lines ran through, contributing to the rapid ignition of the area.

I can't remember the exact link to those files, but a Google search on "MGM Hotel Fire" should find it....

Hi there Doug,
Thanks for your reply.
Some things about your last post worry me slightly.
That in itself is a cause for concern, where people find it acceptable to merely join wires anywhere they feel, outside of walls with incorrect wiring methods.
Secondly,
With idiocy like this occurring, is it any wonder that Fire investigators could suppose that tampering with equipment has happened?.

OK Doug,
I'm leaving the NZ Fire Service next weekend, after then I will have little to do with the local Fire Brigade here per se.
I've done 17 years as a FF of various ranks and I've had enough.
I get married in March and although my fiancee is a full-time Ambulance Officer, she works in shifts, unlike us volunteer FF's.
The early mornings and LATE nights really start to take thier toll after a while.
I've seen a LOT of FF's here lose thier marriages to the Fire Service, mainly because of the dedication required, I'm not going to be one of them.
One Senior Station Officer here left because after 21 years, was sad that he really had not seen his kids grow up, if the siren/pager goes, you go.
Next week is my last Duty crew with Red Watch.
We are having a BBQ here at home for my last day with the Brigade.
It is going to be hard, obviously living next door to a Fire Station can't make it any easier but, you have to cut ties some-time.
I just want to settle down and start a family.
I always maintained that I would retire from fire-fighting before I got married.
Fire-fighting is a single persons game these days

I think a little review of history is in order here.

In 1893, Chicago held the "Worlds Columbian Exposition," a fair which showcased the new marvel ... electricity. As you might guess, there were LOTS of fires as a result. Also, as you might guess, this touched a sore spot, with Chicago having burnt down in 1871 in the "Great Chicago Fire."

Soon after, the first electric codes were written, and UL was formed by the insurance companies.

We've reached a point now where there is almost never a fire caused by a properly installed electrical system. Of the few problems there are, it seems that 90% are from errors in the installation (loose connections), and 10% matters related to age and maintenance.

Shoddy appliances, misuse of extension cords, and "well, it works, don't it" arrangements are another matter entirely. IMO, these problems might be 'electrical' in nature, but not the sort of thing we can fix.

The one exception is the result of folks living in homes older than they are. Our lives have changed tremendously in recent years, and homes are rarely adequate for this new lifestyle. As a result - mea culpa - even I must use some extension cords in my 1940 rental! You'll even find some of those "suicide adapters" too!

As an interesting matter of fact the USA are the only country I know that regards the permanent use of extension cords and power strips as something bad. In Austria and Germany it's very common to see power strips for example behind computers installed for years and nobody is concerned about it. The only thing that is definitely frowned upon is the use of cheap extension cords (or generally extension cords as they introduce additional connection resistance) for high-power apploances such as washing machines (up to 3500W @230V), electric dryers and similar.
Of course, for example running 18 AWG extension cords under carpets or dozens of power strips to power a whole room from one original receptacle is not a good idea, but I don't see any reason not to use quality power strips and extension cords in some applications. For example, I have a triplex receptacle for my computer in which I plug a surge diverter power strip. That way my computer is protected and if needed I can unplug everything at once. Installing a sufficient number of receptacles for such a computer system would have been impossible since most computer systems consist of a huge number of very low power devices like speakers, ink-jet printers, etc.

Well have a beer on me, Mate! I've got 17 years myself as a volly, and I plan on "retiring" at 20. That will leave me only 8 more years doing it as my F/T gig to be able to retire to where the real money is... Electrical Contracting! [lol]


Good on ya! Now, the real question is, can she deal with a faultsman and the pager?

Congrats Trump!

Thanks a lot Doug!.

Tex, they may talk about how terrible power strips are in inspector meetings and seminars but in the 30 years I was with IBM I was never in a computer room without plenty of them.
Nobody ever seriously suggested that the install a receptacle for each of the 200 or 300 modems in a big server rack array. each rack will have a plug strip in them with receptacles as close together as the wall warts will fit that plugs in a NEMA 5-15.

@gfretwell: I was thinking residential, and there has been a lot of discussion on that topic around here.
Nice to see it's not that tough everywhere

Trumpy, Congrats!