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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
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e57 Offline OP
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Quote
This depends on the employer to determine what type of certification is required to do the job. Some employers may require a specialized certificate from the individual verses a general one.

Sandsnow, I agree the answer is pretty vague - "General" covers anything under the NEC according to their description of that classification... But I think they may have meant "NICET Certification" or equal in addition to 'Their' certification - required only by the employer or job specifications.... ???????

Scott, I'm in the same boat on FA - Run loads of conduit for it, but also have under instruction installed a number of them. Spec's, design, setting and programing by people who knew what they were doing... (They call it "Parts and Smarts"....)

1000BaseT,
I agree that further regulation is not totally necessary, as an 'ideal' that it was promoted as, it had some merit, that many other states enjoy.... However due to the effect of politics this and related laws it's a 'railroad' IMO. Benefiting some at the expense of others. (Big Union/Merit shops vs. Small 2-3 employee shops who'll be forced to associate with one or the other, that wouldn't have to otherwise.) It ties to Prevailing Wage, Public Works qualification, approval of training programs etc. The later effects us all down the line, because geographically you may be limited in where, or who by, your labor gets trained, or maintained through "continuing education". So from either side of the Union/Merit line, either company may have to pay more to attract employees from further away for their particular flavor of labor.

There are to the contrary, some penalties for both employer, and employee, they may not seem significant but on an individual, or company level could be harsh if caught with uncertified labor or working uncertified.

Employee:
Barred from taking test for 5 years. (the term of his new apprenticeship if he can get in one) During that time, could not work unsupervised and there for his value as an employee is diminished, which could mean loss of job or pay scale...

Employer:
Could be barred for employing apprentices or trainees, which would mean they would have to pay Journey level wages for all employees, and have a harder time getting them as that pool of labor dries up. i.e. Higher operating costs....

Also, as a small shop... You could hire a "Helper"... But in the long run that will be both a dis-service to the employee, as any experience gained would be invalid... And limit your companies contracting and growth possibilities.



[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-10-2007).]


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
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LK Offline
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"I can't have a reasonable debate with someone who believes our industry needs more regulation or that our industry is not a profession."

The industry will not be a profession, if you move on and ignor the issues of enforcement, to bring it up to a professional level, you need the certifications, and exams, to show the applicants skill level, and you need the enforcement to keep it at a professional level.

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20
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e57, you make some good points, but as you know, here in California, there will be no enforcement of this or any other rule.

I mean, for pete's sake, you no longer even need a contractor's license in California. I can't remember when the last time I worked on a job that did not have at least 1 unlicensed contractor working on it.

The CSLB stopped going after unlicensed contractors years ago. Anybody look at CraigsList lately?

The INS does not enforce the immigration laws.

How is the state going to enforce this law when they can't even be bothered to chase down unlicensed contractors or illegal aliens?

How does this law benefit the public anyway? We already have our work inspected by the government. By the way, the test is very easy, its just an open book code test. It doesn't set any kind of standard. Hardly anything to crow about.

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 16
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I agree with LK. Just look at other construction professional trades today.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
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e57 Offline OP
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LK we did just fine without it for the last 100+ years by having Inspectors come by jobsites to roll a thumb up or down.... Inspectors have gone down hill in many areas IMO, and even licensed persons not getting inspected is more of an issue outside of unlicensed handymen or other trades jumping in to do the work because we are looked at as too expensive.....

1000BaseT, lets leave citizenship out of the discussion... It's not relivant at all! There are plenty of people born and raised here who do not follow laws of any kind... Many of those unlicensed contractors were born and raised right here in the USA. And not being licensed is LEGAL to the point of $500 or less. (Total project cost) And just as a reminder it is ILLEGAL to associate with unlicensed contractors in this State if it constitutes "Aiding or Abetting"
Quote
§ 7114. Aiding, abetting, or conspiring with unlicensed person to evade law

Aiding or abetting an unlicensed person to evade the provisions of this chapter or combining or conspiring with an unlicensed person, or allowing one’s license to be used by an unlicensed person, or acting as agent or partner or associate, or otherwise, of an unlicensed person with the intent to evade the provisions of this chapter constitutes a cause for disciplinary action.

Added Stats 1939 ch 37 § 1. Amended Stats 1975 ch 329 § 2.

The CSLB does have a healthy list of people they bust every 3 month on the back of every newsletter from violations ranging from fraud to not having the right font in contracts..... And go on and on about sting operations they do. And you can report anyone you like, and they do go after them. http://www.cslb.ca.gov/forms/hotleadref.pdf

Quote
How does this law benefit the public anyway? We already have our work inspected by the government. By the way, the test is very easy, its just an open book code test. It doesn't set any kind of standard.

I feel the same way about it.... The only thing it proves is that you can read.... It does not mean you understand any of it...


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
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e57 Offline OP
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Anyone find any place offering continuing ed yet? I found one today.... Almost $700 [Linked Image]

Web-based... I did not think that was allowed?

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-10-2007).]


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
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LK Offline
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I see a few things in the laws that need to be changed before anything works.

1) The testing, has to include a knowledge section, along with the open book code.

2) The $500 threshold for work requiring a license, is just "NUTS" (That says you only protect the consumer when the job is over $500) I would love to meet the person that thought that one up, public safety?

3) The Independent Contractors State wide need a say in the lawmaking process.

4) No permits should be issued, without a signed, and sealed permit for every job, requiring a permit.

Guys get together, there is strength in numbers, let the lawmakers know your not happy campers, if they don't hear from you, then they will listen to Mr Nuts.






[This message has been edited by LK (edited 01-10-2007).]

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 38
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"Anyone find any place offering continuing ed yet? I found one today.... Almost $700"

I've found two.

WECA $275/quarter

ABC $110/month

Both told me that they are having trouble filling their classes. Seems odd to me...

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 38
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"I mean, for pete's sake, you no longer even need a contractor's license in California. I can't remember when the last time I worked on a job that did not have at least 1 unlicensed contractor working on it."

From what I can tell (and the way it's setup is a gawdawful mess), the CSLB has nothing to do with the certification program. It's the "Division of Apprenticeship Standards" - accountable it seems, to no one.

Joined: May 2003
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e57 Offline OP
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stevecheyenne,
The one I found was the ABC one.... (I think) http://www.abcsd.org/user-assets/Documents/Training%20Flyers/sbcRecrtyr.pdf

I'm noting you're mentioning month and quarter pricing - are we on the same thing???? For the continuing edu hours, or is that pricing for ET or Apprentice?

And IMO the DAS is in a parrelel universe.... Or somewhere on the other side of the 'Stargate'....


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
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