ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Increasing demand factors in residential
by tortuga - 03/28/24 05:57 PM
Portable generator question
by Steve Miller - 03/19/24 08:50 PM
Do we need grounding?
by NORCAL - 03/19/24 05:11 PM
240V only in a home and NEC?
by dsk - 03/19/24 06:33 AM
Cordless Tools: The Obvious Question
by renosteinke - 03/14/24 08:05 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 265 guests, and 15 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
#71657 11/05/06 01:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 32
G
Member
I have a few culprits to check. Let me see what I find. A clamp on is a great tool for this stuff and when it is on a scope you really get a good look at what is happening.
I may be a day or so because it is busy around here and my regular PC is down (bad system board) I am on something I cobbled up from junk this morning and I don't have it configured for my camera.


Greg Fretwell
#71658 11/05/06 04:14 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline
Member
I have seen a number of hermetic refer compressors develop ground faults over time. The type you see in smaller commercial units and residential reffers. I believe the oil inside heats up, and deteriorates eventualy becoming conductive, or cap start of the motor fails.

Back on the Commercial Kitchen GFI requirements, wording of codes, and application of exceptions...
Quote
210.8(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel: ~
(3) Kitchens
Section 210.8(B)(3) is new for the 2002 Code and requires all 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt receptacles in nondwelling-type kitchens to be GFCI protected. This requirement applies to each and every 15- and 20-ampere, 125-volt kitchen receptacle, whether or not the receptacle serves countertop appliances.
Accident data related to electrical incidents in nondwelling kitchens reveal the presence of many hazards, including poorly maintained electrical apparatus, damaged electrical cords, wet floors, and employees without proper electrical safety training. Mandating some limited form of GFCI protection for high-hazard areas such as nondwelling kitchens should help prevent electrical accidents.
(commentary=not code)

I had an aurguement with a PM about that after I GFI'ed all the 120 recepticals, as that code (2002) has now been accepted here. I did it on one kitchen and the inspector gave me the thumbs up for doing it. "Hey, didn't have to tell you." Then did it on another, and this PM went ballistic. (Didn't bid the job that way) We aurgued about that code that also provides no exceptions, even for dedicated cord connected appliances. And after she had someone else pull all of the GFI's before the inspection, and passed, with different inspector it at final... then used that to rub in my face, and the begining of a steady deterioration of our working relationship. That was months ago, and my last day was last Friday! (After many black-white, apples-oranges, day-night, yes-no aurguments) Bottom line is it is not what passes, or what you get away with, it is what the code says. And often interpetation is not rocket science, although difficult to accept. Especially if you are just flat out wrong. [Linked Image]
(edit to add code ref: )


[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 11-05-2006).]


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
#71659 11/07/06 02:24 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 650
W
Member
Bob,

I entirely agree that if a GFCI trips, it is because there is a fault somewhere. And I am not going to argue that adding a GFCI does not improve safety; clearly it is a very reasonable position that if there is an insulation fault, it should be fixed, no exceptions.

As I said, I am throwing out ideas for consideration here.

It still seems to me that the 6mA ground fault protection for personnel is not necessarily the best solution for equipment fastened in place. A metal frame appliance fastened in place is very different from the tools used at construction sites or portable tools used with extension cords, or a small appliance in a kitchen.

The appliance fastened in place is more likely to be something subject to unattended use, and more likely to have a reliable EGC connection. The first point suggests that a higher trip level be desirable to reduce un-attended failures, the second point suggests that more leakage could be tolerated.

-Jon

#71660 11/07/06 02:37 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
Jon I was not trying to give you a hard time and I am also just putting out some ideas for discussion.

Very little equipment 'fastened in place' or hardwired is required to be GFCI protected.

Pool pumps for instance, cord and plug connected requires a GFCI, hardwired does not.

In this case, a Washing machine I see no 'downside' to providing GFCI protection at 6 ma as UL standards require less leakage current than that from an appliance.

I do see an up side.

Many times I have found the cords of large appliances damaged from getting 'run over' by the appliance itself when it is pushed into place.

I believe it is exact type of damage that the requirements for non-dwelling kitchens and vending machines where put into place.

The EGC gets compromised and than either existing leakage current or damage to an ungrounded conductor results in a live appliance frame.


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5