ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area 210.8.... query....

My washer and dryer (gas) are both on a GFCI with no problems at all. In my case, it is a dedicated circuit serving the laundry equipment, located in the kitchen, above the counter, adjacent to the kitchen sink. There's no way it can't be a GFCI :-)

You better get used to it as the NEC requires it.

Once again I must be missing something, but 210.8(A)(7) seems to refer to sinks...not to the laundry room. I'd think that 210.8(A)(5)exception 2 would allow you to put in a single non-gfi receptacle for the washing machine if it were in the basement andid not have a sink to drain into, but rather a washer box or stand pipe. If the laundry is located in the upper level of the house with no sink (just a washer box) it shouldn't need to even have a single receptacle to be non-gfi protected. So what am I missing?

In Canada you don't need a GFI if the receptacle is located behind the stationary appliance so that it is inaccesable for use with a portable appliance 26-700(11a+b)

HLCbuild


From the 2005 NEC

If you have a sink in the laundry room any receptacle installed within 6' of that must be GFCI protected.

If the sink happens to be near the receptacle for the washer that one must also be GFCI protected.

There are no exceptions to 210.8(A)(7)


I agree, but keep in mind this exception will very likely vanish when the 2008 NEC comes out. And if in the basement if there is a sink within 6' of the washer receptacle the exception to 210.8(A)(5) will not apply at all.


Again I agree under the conditions you describe.

Which is why I passed my inspection. There isn't any type of sink in my laundry room.

IMHO the use of 6mA GFCI protection for metal frame appliances fixed in place is a slight misapplication of ground fault protection. I believe that it will cause nuisance tripping, not because there is no ground fault, but because there is no significant safety issue most of the time.

Just to be clear, if a washing machine trips a GFCI, then there is a real ground fault, and this probably indicates that something needs to be dealt with _eventually_. I see the same sort of issues with refrigerators in commercial kitchens, sump pumps in basements, etc.

A little bit of current leaking from to the metal frame and then to the EGC lead and back to the receptacle is _not_ a shock hazard unless someone is mucking around inside the appliance. I believe therefore that for these sort of applications, we should tolerate higher ground fault levels prior to tripping. If we want to get fancy, I believe that we could design a GFCI type receptacle that has different trip levels for 'ground fault balanced by return on the EGC lead' and 'ground fault returning someplace else'.

I've not fully thought this through, but it just seems to me that GFCI everywhere will lead to a reduction in electrical appliance reliability, and will increase costs, in excess of the safety benefit delivered.

-Jon

Jon, the NEC requires many motor loads to be GFCI protected.

In my time in construction we would live with all receptacles being GFCI protected.

If we had a trip it was for a real reason.

Currently all 20 amp 120 receptacles in non dwelling kitchens are required to be GFCI protected. There are no exceptions for refrigeration or other motor loads. This section was put into the NEC due to a death that would have likely been prevented by a GFCI.

Good design should come into play.

One GFCI receptacle per point of use so the cumulative leakage current of several appliances does not cause problems.

Use GFCI receptacles in place of GFCI breakers if possible to keep the ground fault protected circuit as short as possible.

BTW if I recall correctly the 4-6 ma was chosen as it is the level considered safe for healthy adults, it is already high than what is considered safe for infants

Another way of looking at this is any current shorting to the frame and going down the EGC is power you paid for and you are not getting any useful work out of.
I think this may be one reason old refrigerators use more current than they did when they were new. Most will trip the GFCI.
I believe it is due to internal shorts in the compressor. I have an old Fedders A/C compressor that I used for sucking down a vacuum on freon systems (when you could fix them) It trips a GFCI and there is nothing but a cord that goes directly into the compressor. When I get a minute I will do some testing with my clamp on and a current probe with my scope. Lets see what I find.

Greg I have read that the real culprit in older refrigerators where the electric defrost heating elements. They would develop ground leakage issues as they aged.

I have no proof of that, I think I saw that info in some handbook commentary.