ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Splicing a new light fixture while circuit is energized

Tom,

Something in the back of my mind says that I will not work with you. I refuse to work with ANYONE who thinks that 120v is nothing to worry about. Ever see someone drop over dead from 120v? Ever see the burns inflicted by 120v? Ever experienced a hand to hand shock on 120v? If you would like some references, I can give you the cemetary plot number. Just let me know.

I was talking 120V... I won't work on anything above 150V to ground hot... Never...

As far as safety, anything above 50V and 6 mA of current is potentially deadly.

TomBrooklyn sounds like a laborer I knew in California who thought he was immune to electric shock since he never got zapped.. through his dry callused fingers!

[This message has been edited by Elzappr (edited 01-17-2002).]

BigBlue, Probably if we were working together, I'd be working for you and doing it your way, but anyway you asked me if I:

> ...Ever see someone drop over dead from 120v? No.

> Ever see the burns inflicted by 120v?
No.

Ever experienced a hand to hand shock on 120v? I don't think so, but I was wondering how bad that can be. I specifically asked about that above.

I'm not suggesting that anyone should work hot on 120. I was just saying that I do. I've also seen a lot of electicians do it and a lot more. Some of the responders above admit to doing it, so I'm not feeling all alone here.

It could be that 120V is a lot more dangerous than I thought. Take my post in the form of a question, not a recomendation to follow.

sparky said "As far as safety, anything above 50V and 6 mA of current is potentially deadly."

Under what circumstances could such a low V/A be deadly or seriously injurious? I would certainly like to know.

I can understand both sides of this argument. Have worked many times hot. Have been shocked the worst by 120. If I can, I shut down any ckt I work on except during troubleshooting. I do NOT allow my apprentices to work hot. Sometimes you just have to tell the office types tough s*** the light are going off or the power is going down. I try to be diplomatic about it but safety come first. The only real reason to work hot is when it is absolutly necessary to do so. No office or store location or house has any reason to work hot because of potential hazards of shuting down the power.
Industrial areas can be a different story.

Althought many of us will work hot at various voltages for various reasons, we should never minimize the risks of 120 volt work. It is foolish to say, as is often heard "it's only 120 volts". So many factors affect the resistance of the body path (dampness, contact area, overall health, etc) that it is easy to have a low enough body resistance to allow the one tenth of an amp that will kill most people, pass through the body. We don't know our resistance at any given time, and if we choose to work hot(even at 120), for whatever reason, do it cautiously.

GFCI's 4-6 ma figure was originally solicted from the medical community. It is the threshold of V-fib , a potentially lethal heart arythmia.
Having access to an EKG, i'd be willing to entertain contestants.
A printed strip will be avaliable @ no additional $$$

The figure that I am familiar with for average skin resistance is 5000Ohms. Divide that into 120 V and you have 24mA.(Divide it into 50 V and you get a tingle of 1mA.) Current path determines whether or not it is lethal. Electricians working things "hot" know how to keep a relatively safe current path in the event of an inadvertent screw-up. Just because you see electricians working hot doesn't mean it isn't dangerous. But let's not lose focus on the flash hazards. Drawing an unexpected arc can do serious damage to your eyes, or startle you off your ladder!

Circumtsances are pertinent, yes. Skin resistance, even body resistance is a factor, the new defib's are 'biphasic' with this in mind.......digression....

Myself, I think every newbie needs to experience , in some safe manner, the power in a fault.

Having iron atomize is a lasting impression.

I certainly don't like working anything hot if I don't have to ...I got the living Sh** shocked out of me on live 277...I remember to this day actually going to the bathroom and looking in the mirror to see if smoke was coming out of my ears, I thought for sure I was going to die ...it just wouldn't let go of me and there was no one around to help.

I heard something on the news today - this Enron situation - one of the top execs was talking about why no one blew the whistle or did anything about the illegal goings-on....he said in the real world of corporate America today those people with integrity who want to 'go by the book' are usually unemployed.

But I'll tell you something else - NO ONE, and I mean no one who works for me EVER has to work on a live wire under any circumstances. I'm in charge of a large mfg. facilities and I do have the authority to say no - I'll pay my electricians OT to work after hrs. or on the weekends...but I know I'm the exception, most of these guys don't work for someone willing to pay the OT.