ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area non licensed work

Here are some newsletters with actions against licensed contractors and non licensed people doing electrical work in N.C.
http://www.ncbeec.org/newsletters.htm

I personally think unlicensed workers (handy man types) contracting electrical work should be reported.

Roger

Glad I got the responses. I wasn't sure how everyone was going to react. Some points though:
I have seen electricians of such high caliber and knowledge that if I lived to be 200 years old, I still wouldn't be as good as them. But, They are unlicensed because they just can't pass the exams, or are afraid to take them over fear of failure, or can't get the documentation and affidavits necessary to verify their time in the trade. They are doomed to work for another person and get paid far less than what they are worth.But, no matter how good they are, they are working illegally if they attempt to contract or advertise electrical work.
I carry 1,000,000.00 of liability insurance for my business. I do not want to jeopardize my home and family because as a sole proprietor , I am personally responsible for my business, unlike a corporation.
My service van also has a 1,000,000.00 commercial liability policy in case I am involved in an accident.
I always give a written invoice in my company name for the homeowners to use for reference, warranty, and for tax deduction purposes.
I pay taxes on my income, my vehicle, and my business.
I have gone through all the hoops, taken an apprenticeship, gone to school at night for years, cashed in my retirement IRA early to keep afloat financially while perusing my dream of working for myself and owning my own business. My ambitions are simple, to make enough in the next twenty years to be able to be retired in style, and to pass on something for my family.
If I have to hire someone, I will not treat them as I have seen others being treated. I will pay them a living wage, or not hire anyone at all.
I will protect that which I have earned through hard work and determination.I will continue to ask the state to warn unlicensed electricians that they are not acting legally by advertising their services.
If you don't pass the bar exam, you don't practice law. If you don't have a medical degree, and a state license you ain't no doctor. If you are an unlicensed, uninsured, cash under the table tax evader attempting to do electrical contracting,then you are in some deep doo-doo when you get caught. But if you do then I can get a friend of mine to represent you cheap. He isn't a real lawyer, but he works for cash, and he has a job at a law firm as a janitor, and he gets to read a lot of legal stuff he picks out of the trash.

I'm quite impressed with this discussion. This is one that could easily become a flame war. See the credentials thread for my background; I don't know that I really have 'place' to speak on this issue.

My take on this is that licensing laws, like all laws, have both their direct intended effects as well as their side effects. Conspiracy theorists like to focus on the side effects as the insidious reason that people actually passed the laws. Me, I like to try to figure out and state clearly what the side effects are, so that others can decide if the side effects are themselves worth supporting along with the law itself. Some of these side effects cause direct harm to good people.

This discussion has provided pictures of both the best and the worst of electrical licensing laws.

festus said both:

"I have seen some results of work by unlicensed individuals, and some of it is frightening and dangerous. "
and

"I have seen electricians of such high caliber and knowledge that if I lived to be 200 years old, I still wouldn't be as good as them. But, They are unlicensed because they just can't pass the exams, or are afraid to take them over fear of failure, or can't get the documentation and affidavits necessary to verify their time in the trade. They are doomed to work for another person and get paid far less than what they are worth.But, no matter how good they are, they are working illegally if they attempt to contract or advertise electrical work."

In my mind the _reason_ for requiring licensing is to provide a minimum standard of skill, knowledge, and ability to make safe electrical installations. Someone who provides this level of service _without_ a licence is not a public safety problem, is not a hack, and is not violating the direct intent of the law.

But they are violating the letter of the law. While not being unfair to their customers, they are being somewhat unfair to those who have taken the time to jump through all the legal hoops while at the same time being providing quality electrical work. There are lots of things that come with proper licensing, including all of the proper permitting and inspections, insurance, taxes, etc. Unlicensed work means that you don't incur a bunch of costs, and also means that you have given up certain safeguards.

As Reno notes, doing unlicensed work means that you've given up a bunch of safeguards that protect you, and this means that even a _good_ electrician, if doing unlicensed work, is open to all sorts of abuse. Here, in my mind, is a major downside of licensing laws: if, for whatever reason, someone has not met the letter of the law, even if their work is good and safe, then they are open to abuse with little protection.

AZsam has also noted that there are licensed contractors who don't do quality work. These are people who meet the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law.

So there are 4 groups advertising their services:

Hacks who violate both the letter and the spirt of the law. They endanger lives. IMHO do everything that you can to through the book at them. Use the licensing laws as they were intended, report them, sue them, etc.

People who meet the letter of the law but not the spirit. People who perhaps put the time it, or are working 'under' someone else's licence, or otherwise are legal, but who are cutting corners, not keeping up with current code, not doing proper installation. IMHO these people also need to be reported, but presumably they have the basic skills, and simply need to 'shape up'.

People who meet both the letter and the spirit of the law. This is the ideal.

People who meet the spirit of the law but not the letter. My guess is that this group is actually few and far between. Being an electrician takes brains, and if you have the skill, then you probably also have the skill to jump the hoops. But I don't know every circumstance. It seems to me that if _you_ as a properly licensed EC know someone who you personally feel is a good electrician, but who is not licensed, then you _are_ being petty to sic the law on them. If someone is violating the letter, but not the spirit, of the law, then IMHO one has a moral obligation to try to 'bring them into the fold'.

-Jon

Let me say one thing on this topic..

Generally to be licensed, you need to prove you have a business..

Businesses must pay taxes, in the form of either state/federal..These guys that are unlicensed are not paying their fair share that we as contractors must..it hurts all of us, whether you realise it or not..

Dnk..

Here you must be licensed to run a business.

License first, than a business.

But I still agree that those breaking the rules hurt us all.

If I may add my 2 cents in here, as for work without a permit, sometimes a neighbor or a realtor is the construction office's best friend. When 1 meighbor sees another doing work, and "How come they don't need a permit, buut I do?" When our office gets a call like that, the Construction Official ( CO) will go out and inspect the job to see if there was work done witout a permit. As John said, then the fines start to fly. Also realtors when looking at a house now come into the CO's office and look for permits for that basement that looks kinda new. They want to make sure the don't sell the property and find open permits for that job.

Apprently, it's not just our industry.....

Three Men Charged in 'Dungeon' Castration
Three Men Charged in 'Dungeon' Castration

CHARLOTTE, N.C. — Three men have been arrested on charges of performing castrations on apparently willing participants in a sadomasochistic "dungeon" in a rural house, authorities said Friday.

"It's extremely bizarre," District Attorney Michael Bonfoey said in a telephone interview. "It's incredible the amount of ways that people can find to run afoul of the law."


Sheriff's investigators said Richard Sciara, 61, Danny Reeves, 49, and Michael Mendez, 60, admitted performing at least eight surgeries, including castrations and testicle replacements, on six consenting clients over the past year. None of the three is licensed to practice medicine, officials said.

The suspects, all residents of the house in Haywood County, in western North Carolina, where the surgeries were allegedly performed, were arrested Thursday. They were being held on $150,000 bond each and could make their first court appearances Monday, Bonfoey said.

The sheriff's office had investigated reports of sadomasochistic acts at the house in 2004, but concluded there was nothing illegal going on because the participants appeared to be willing adults.

Renewed scrutiny, prompted by a citizen who made "strange statements" to Bonfoey, revealed that illegal surgeries were taking place, the prosecutor said.

Detectives who searched the home Wednesday found medical supplies that included scalpels, sutures, bandages, anesthetic and artificial replacement testicles, sheriff's officials said.

Also seized were videotaping equipment, and video recordings of the surgeries, sheriff's officials said. Photos and videos made at the "dungeon" were apparently featured on a locally produced sadomasochistic Web site, officials said.

"This right here beats anything I have ever seen," Sheriff Tom Alexander told the Asheville Citizen-Times, which reported that victims may have come from as far away as South America.

Each man faces 10 felony counts — five each of castration without malice and conspiracy to commit castration without malice — as well as eight misdemeanor counts of performing medical acts without a license. Each felony carries a maximum three years and three months in prison, Bonfoey said.

"Assuming that the victims consented to this — and we don't know that for sure yet — that doesn't make it a defense," Bonfoey said. "We can't have people who are not medical doctors lopping off limbs and other body parts."

___
Copyright 2006, The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP Online news report may not be published, broadcast or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

Generally to be licensed, you need to prove you have a business


Not in my state. You have to have the professional license before you can get a business license. You can only qualify one company per license. Only one license is needed for as many workers as you want. Most of the big EC could not care less if you have a license or not. It iwll gain you nothing unless you want to go out and start a business

Licenses in most professions are intended to protect the general public from being lead into dangerous situations by those who don't possess the skills necessary to do a given job while conforming to current safety standards.

That's why an unlicensed homeowner can do all the wiring (or plumbing) in his own home, subject to permit and subsequent inspection.

Wendel:
NJ State law is 'a homeowner of a single family dwelling that is his primary residence can do his own electrical & plumbing work.' 'He cannot "supervise" someone else doing that work, as he can with the Building and Fire trades.'

The above is NOT verbatum from the UCC, but a litoral translation.

Permits and inspections are required.

John