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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 174
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Hows a contaractor supposed to get started. Are they just supposed to give up potential work and possibly future clients because there not licensed? Are they just supposed to one day after they get there license say I'll become a contractor now and hope the calls come in? I'm not saying it's right, but there is a grey area here. Im not talking about some hack who thinks he knows wiring but someone who is taking the necessary steps to become a legitimate electrical contractor. Someone who always does things to code even though he knows it'll never be inspected and who refuses to cut corners because it'll save him or the homeowner money. Just remember how hard it was to get started yourself and remove the speck from your own eye.
Jesus may have been a capenter,but God was an electrician.Genesis1:3
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381 Likes: 7
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Shock: Not for nothing, BUT.....here in NJ:
Someone pays someone to perform a service. The work is being performed. An AHJ finds out, and 'catches' someone. MINIMUM Municipal fine $2000.00 State Fine, $5 to $10K A criminal charge filed, and a criminal record. And, like I said above, IF the someone is in process for a Lic., as the boys in the 'port' say "fugedaboutit"
John
John
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 100
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I really don't see what the problem is with unlicensed individuals.
If people are willing to risk their lives and property by hiring unlicensed and otherwise unqualified hacks, then that is their right in a free society. And when they run into trouble, like if their home or business burns down, or they electrocute themselves, why should any of us care? (Other than the small incidental costs of having the fire department or EMS come out.)
Just like if people want to risk their lives going to unlicensed doctors. If they die, is it any skin off of anyone elses back? If people want to be stupid, I say let them!
It is NOT the job of government to protect people from themselves -- at least in the United States anyway.
If you think that a government issued license is the key to your busines success, then you might as well close up shop now and work for someone else. Unlicensed individuals are not taking ANY business away from you. If you're not getting jobs, it's not because others are unlicensed, it's because your not marketing yourself and your company, and people don't see your value.
Don't take this the wrong way, but instead of wasting your time ratting out others to the government, invest your time in promoting your OWN business. So you got a handyman to take "electrical" out his ad. Did that put any food on your table? (They're still gonna do electric work anyway).
Also look at it this way, when a handyman or other hack screws something up (like they invariably do), look at how much more you can bang 'em over the head to redo it right. Some people need a good education like this, and will truly appreciate it! My old man always used to say, "charge 'em, they'll appreciate it more..." too bad he never practiced what he preached.
Don't get me wrong, other than maybe drywall repair and minor clean-up, I wouldn't trust a handyman to so much as wire up a doorbell from what I've seen.
I also agree with others here that licensing alone doesn't assure quality work either -- just like licensing doesn't assure people can safely either, as everyone here knows. It just means you're "licensed" which will never be enough assurance for me.
Joe
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381 Likes: 7
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Bot: I worked for a large Co. for 17 years 'till they went out. Went to a local EC, paid my 'dues' (4 years), did the Vo-Tech thing too. Took the test, passed, got my Lic. and struggled. Met a few people, made some friends, found a few GOOD accounts and that's it.
In between, took the AHJ courses and TESTS, passed, got the AHJ Lic. Squeezed in an Instructors Certification to teach Basic Electric at Vo-Tech. Squeezed in Certification to teach Continuing Ed to EC's.
I know the "you gotta do what ya gotta do" scenario; been there. Just be aware of the consequences.
BTW: One could always work for an EC while one was starting out; even a day or two??
John
John
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 141
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Funny post, I just got home from doing some side work. I think theres differant circumstances that need to be looked at. Tonight I moved some lines for a friend of mine whos kitchen remodel is being held up because everyones busy. This friend always treats me well when I am a customer of his business. I wont be paid cash for what I worked on but Ill get a few deals on some items I have been wanting to purchase. If I didnt move the lines his handyman wouldve so either way an EC would not have gotten the job.
Ive known many ECs who before they were licensed were doing side work eveynight and every weekend, a few of them after getting licensed starting turning others in for the same thing they have done for years. That to me is BS and nothing but a rat.
Ill do work for friends and family and usually will not accept money from friends. I get asked weekly on company jobs if Ill do sidework, my response is always "no it is the same as stealing".
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 60
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<Joe Said> If people are willing to risk their lives and property by hiring unlicensed and otherwise unqualified hacks, then that is their right in a free society. And when they run into trouble, like if their home or business burns down, or they electrocute themselves, why should any of us care? (Other than the small incidental costs of having the fire department or EMS come out.) </Joe Said>
Then lets pass a law that says [ Clowns that use "unlicensed and otherwise unqualified hacks" to wire their homes must put up a sign on them that says "Wired by Hack - Do not Save in Case of Fire"] so that the Fire Department does not have to put their people at risk to try and save a burning structure that might not have burned had it been wired by a properly regulated trades person.
The purpose of the rules governing who can do electrical work and that of the other regulated trades; is meant to do more then protect people from themselves. It is also meant to protect me and you and the rest of us from being impacted by a fire in their house right next door to your house.
The history of the CEC, NEC and NFPA codes all owe their existance to the desire to protect society as a whole from the impact of the fool who thinks he knows better.
As trades people... we need to help validate our worth and the service we provide to an ever increasingly cost conscious consumer. By not doing so... we risk falling to the same level of the "hack" in the eye of the market we serve.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,445 Likes: 2
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First of all, there is a world of diference between helping your Grandmother, and putting up fliers at the laundromat. There is a difference between a five-minute job after hours, and running a 24/7 "business" off the tailgate of your truck. Finally, there is a difference between replacing a receptacle, and doing a service change.
There are reasons for contracting laws, and not all of them are there for sinister reasons. I have known many folks who deliberately seek out the unlicensed. At best, these customers are miserly scum who think thay can get Champaign service at cola prices. At worst, they are scam artists, looking for fresh victims. You see, they know that the unlicensed guy has full liability, yet there is no obligation to pay him. So they jerk the guy around, and end up getting some work for little more than the price of the materials.
When I did "side work," I made sure that I discussed it with my boss at work; I bought parts through the company (and paid them back). I did it this way because: -This gave me the protection of working under his license; -It avoided possible conflicts with what business he wanted to do; and, -I wasn't about to endanger a full time job for a POS one-shot deal.
You know, the last time I checked, there were no laws that prohibited anyone from getting licensed- even if they had day jobs. Now, maybe you will say "it's too expensive," and I might even agree with you. But consider this- How will you finance the parts for a job, buy necessary tools, pay for a 'call back,' etc...if you can't even afford a license?
The only thing wron with the licensing laws is that they fail to address the cheap jackalopes who create a market for the unlicensed guys.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 821
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John:
I had no idea until last night that doing work 'on the side' is now a 4th degree crime in the state of NJ. My teacher at the Vo-tech told us that. And I am going to school so I can get my electrical/ business license because I realize how risky it is to do work and not have one. It's a shame that I'm not eligible to take the exam because a former employer had to take me off the books because he could not afford workman's comp ins. because he did not charge the customers enough. But these are the cards I've been dealt and I need to do side work to build a clientelle (sp?) so I can go into business for myself. It's also the reason I choose to come to this website so I'm better than the next moron who doesn't know how to do run a business.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,429
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If your doing side work, and your not licensed, chances are pretty good, there is no permit pulled.
When you do a job, and there was no permit issued, the homeowner just put his life investment on the block, because his homeowners insurance, is no longer whole, insurance underwriters protect their investment, by putting a clause in the insurance contract, that all work done must meet all building codes, or other language that protects the insurer from a loss.
Now, who do you think the homeowner is going to go after, when his insurer denies payment on a claim, and don't think this dosen't happen.
No, i din't do side work before i had my license, and i made sure every job, had a permit pulled.
[This message has been edited by LK (edited 04-01-2006).]
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Tom
Shinnston, WV USA
Posts: 1,044
Joined: January 2001
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