ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area I feel sorry,

For all of the linemen that are hurt or killed by one of these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/GENERATOR-EXTEN...9811QQcategoryZ75577QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Sorry for the rant.

Ian A.

I just reported him to ebay... that add falls under the “eBay prohibits the sale of items or links to items that encourage, promote, facilitate or instruct others to engage in illegal activity.”

...And conspicuously leaves out any information on why "officials" wouldn't want you to know how to do this.

I wonder what the "disclaimer" says? "I may have just charged you ten dollars for this information, but it puts lives at risk and I do not advocate following it under any circumstances, therefore you can't sue or otherwise prosecute selfish, irresponsible me."

-John

Here's the text of a "question" I sent to the seller. Will post any response he decides to give.


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-11-2006).]

Matt, can you post the link you reported him on so that we can flood Ebay with reports?

Roger

http://pages.ebay.com/help/contact_us/_base/index_6.html

They will ask you for your member ID though.

This A-Hole should be arrested!!!
I sent him an e-mail similar to NJwirenut's and also a scathing letter to E-bay reporting him.

He is offering a similar listing regarding ultralight planes.
What a moron!

I was also instantly POed at this moron.

He should offer another paper.

"How to make money with total disregard for others safety"

I can see a person falling for his sales pitch for the cord but this..


....I think a person buying plans for a ultralight plane from a source like this is probably not savable. Hopefully they fall away from others.

Thanks Matt, I also sent him an e-mail.

Roger

ditto will be sending email too.

Wow.. I can't believe what I saw.. I guess to the normal homeowner they do not see the dangers in backfeeding from a generator..and that a stepdown transformer will work "backwards"...
Those setups are simply not 'idiot proof" as my former employer put it.
I don't know what else to say, it blows my mind that crap like that is availible out there FOR SALE!

A.D

Fifteen pages to tell you how to atach two things to a piece of wire? His "day job" must have something to do with writing the tax code!

I believe I have the name, address and telephone number.

E-mail me.

From the looks of this set-up I woan't be able to run my dryer. What good is that!

Just hang the clothes in the backyard. The heat from the ensuing house fire will dry them real fast....

Horrifying!

Bob, his name and address are public knowledge, he put it right in the listing.
10 seconds in an internet white pages got his phone number.

He's obviously not that bright.

edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Speedy Petey (edited 01-08-2006).]

Perhaps the only way to make it known that bootleg genny hookups are not to be done is, if caught the law should require ALL utilities be shut off for a year,( electric/ gas/water/phones/ internet/ CATV) perhaps then they might get the hint that there is something wrong with their actions.

P.S. I am prob. wrong as everything is ALWAYS someone elses fault.

Did anybody happen to notice the size wire he is using on top of all this, it looks #12, #10 tops, would you run your entire house off that? But that would also give you another place to dry clothes. The problem with electricity is that it almost always works.

I'm not sure really what is the bigger tragedy here; This guy selling these "Suicide Cords" (a quite appropriate name for them), or the people who either lack the intelligence or responsibility to their families who have bought this "report" .

(paraphrased)..."An hour to locate the needed, parts and an hour to assemble them."

...And a lifetime to consider the terrible consequences of such a device (my words).

I'm with Petey. This should be illegal and prosecuted as such. It is no less SINISTER than manufacturing or selling illegal drugs.

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 01-08-2006).]

One person actually bought one. Even if we get past the stupidity of using this cord, who needs instructions to install 2 plugs, beyond what the manufacturer includes in the box?
Ebay never ceases to amaze me


[This message has been edited by gfretwell (edited 01-09-2006).]

Actually, if you check out his feedback and click on the item numbers, you will see that he's sold quite a few of them.

I only hope eBay notifies all the purchasers of the dangers involved with this set-up.

The name of these cords depends on how they are used.. If the idiot sticks one end in his mouth, and plugs the other end in, then it is a suicide cord.

I he plugs one end into his house, and the other end into his generator, and kills a lineman, then it is called a murder cord..

If the idiot has been previously warned of the dangers of using such a cord, then the murder can be considered premeditated, and the most severe penalty should be imposed.

Here is a copy of the message I sent to the buyer:

You are shown as purchasing instructions for building a 'whole house generatro extention cord' from seller bobhedges.
This cord as shown is more commonly known as a SUICIDE CORD, and the use of such a cord is PROHIBITED IN ALL JURISDICTIONS IN THE US AND CANADA.

If used improperly, this cord can very easily become a MURDER CORD, and can cause SEVERE or FATAL INJURY to utility workers.

There is NO SAFE WAY OF USING THIS CORD. I REPEAT, THERE IS NO SAFE WAY OF USING THIS CORD.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. IF YOU USE THIS CORD AND A UTILITY WORKER IS KILLED AS A RESULT OF THAT USE, YOU WILL BE GUILTY OF PREMEDITATED MURDER.

Pete of course you are correct.


I was trying to make it easy for anyone that wanted the info.

I will not post it here at Bill's site.

But I have no problem e-mailing it to anyone.

Bob

e-bay has some complete idiots as buyers- during Christmas in the UK we saw some idiot bid more for an item at auction than the cost of buying [inc carriage] of an identical item direct, which was advertised on the same page, plus they paid post and packing on top!
What a bargain!


Alan

Techie: You are indeed correct. This is a case of premeditated murder if someone uses one of these things after being warned of the consequences.

Your e-mail to the buyer is succinct and well stated. It could not be said better. I hope this guy finds some conscious and pulls these horrid things from eBay. I also hope eBay does likewise.

Here is a bizarre thought (not unusual for me ): If someone rigs up one of these cord/generator deathtraps in a house, couldn't it backfeed through the power line, not only to the transformer, but to every other house on that transformer's secondary, PLUS, through the transformer's primary to any other transformers sharing the same primary circuit? Sounds like a bad situation made infinitely worse .

I opt for a proper transfer switch, with proper grounding, and a proper electrician to install it - the cost is negligible compared to other scenarios.

Mike (mamills)

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 01-09-2006).]

[This message has been edited by mamills (edited 01-09-2006).]

It takes 15 pages to explain how to make one of these things up????

How stupid can someone possibly be?

I also wonder what would happen if you forget to unplug this thing when the mains power is restored.

What's so tough about doing it the right way, even if you D-I-Y??!

[This message has been edited by SvenNYC (edited 01-09-2006).]

He also neglects to mention not to run the generator indoors. Hopefully eBay takes our complaints seriously.

I believe so. That's why these murder-cords are frowned upon.

People forget that transformers can work both ways....

I am in no way condoning this cord but wouldn't the generator likely trip its own breaker if the unit tried to supply the whole grid. The major problem is if the drop wires to the home with the generator were down in the yard and the lineman picked them up, which I believe I read about happening.

I agree the breaker in the genset will probably trip as soon as it sees the secondary of the pole transformer and all the upstream load but bad things do happen to good people. The real danger would be if it was a very localized failure. My lineman buddy says if they see power on a drop, backfeeding the grid, they just cut it and make sure the repair ticket keeps getting pushed down to the bottom of the pile.

I agree as well it would PROBABLY trip the breaker as well, but like what was mentioned above, if its local it may not.. Here is a senario.. its a rural area, rural building, where the high voltage is brought to a transformer on the customer's property, so the trans serves no other load but the one building... now say for example its not the secondary service drop thats down but the PRIMARY... That generator could energize the transformer backwards, and liven up the now downed primary line... If a lineman were to come into contact he would "get it" and get it good!... Remember it does not take much current to throw the heart into ventricular defribrilation( think its spelled correct!) should the current take that path And with something at minimum of 2.4kV present,there is going to be a fair current being pushed through whoever is now completing the circuit, not to mention the severe burns that would happen...

Scary isn't it?

A.D

last winter when we had a bad ice storm , we had several other co-ops helping out.they caught a guy for this very thing.he didn't have a clue that he could hurt someone.they told him to either cut it off or they would confiscate the generator & cord & turn it over to the law. but again look at any utility truck at the stckers they say this,"IF IT ISN'T GROUNDED , IT ISN'T DEAD."i was told by one lineman, if they got caught not grounding a line ,it was automatic termination! maybe a good idea.but i guess the old saying still holds true,"better safe ,than sorry."

[This message has been edited by circuit man (edited 01-09-2006).]

Maybe we could get his poco involved in this sale of MURDER CORDS ! Might be interesting to hear what they think of him selling these! Anyone know who the poco is in that part of Florida ?
I too am emailing this bozo about this and will be contacting e-bay also.
Food for Thought:
If E-Bay is told about this and a lineman is killed ; And it can be traced to a cord made by these instructions, bought on e-bay, Can E-Bay be Liable for the linemans death ?

I see that there are a lot of angry replies to that e-bay cord. I didn't check every one of this boards reply yet, but did anyone ask if the cord is UL approved? Maybe UL can get after him?

"I was asked to NOT publish this report because it exposes information that officials would rather not have known." Asked by who, his lawyer?

I just dropped him a line, and invited him here to discuss it. Lets see if he shows up....

This guy also has another item: "what the FAA doesn't want you to know."


Maybe someone should call the FAA and see what they don't want us to know...

[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-09-2006).]

I just emailed this guy and I also email e-bay asking them to remove the sale of this item. I explained why and invited them to have the local poco review the listing and offer their input. The more of us who contact e-bay the better !

First of all, I would like to confess that I, more through luck and reading instructions, rather than having any special talents, have hooked up a few gennys, battery banks, and so on- without any transfer / backfeed problems. May this streak continue....

BUT...I know of others who have been present when the generator power was slightly out of phase, and ran into the PoCo power.
NO, there was nothing as gentle as a breaker tripping. Rather, there was a big "BANG", a blinding flash, and molten metal flying everywhere. Often, this arc-blast took place at the panel, or the transfer switch, or some other place remote from the genny.
One of these accidents -of which I have a first-hand account- resulted in a fatality (the guy who threw the switch).

Had to ring in on this one. I wrote.
Bob
Your whole house (suicide cord) is Dangerous and illegal.
Anyone who would choose this method and put lives in danger should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. All laws that I know of dealing with electrical wiring are to protect people and property. It is sad that someone would sellout safety for any price. How can you sleep at night knowing that you are promoting the illegal use of such a dangerous device? Many innocent ebayers who buy these instructions would probably never attempt such a rig on their own. My thoughts are with the people, their families and the electrical workers put in danger by those who have already purchased this item.
Electricians did not make the law to promote their business; neither did the power companies.
It is common sense.
Do the right thing and discontinue the promotion of this item.
Sincerely concerned
Citizen

Another angle is that this is misleading advertising. The seller would lead you to believe that you can conduct "business as usual" with this thing.
The maximum available power will be 30 amps, the rating of the back-fed breaker for the dryer.
I included this in my email to e-bay.

I am guessing that this guy will not remove this item voluntarily. He's got the exact same name as a deerfield beach resident that was the defendant in a 1992 "Do Not Use" suit in Broward County, Fla filed by Shelby Electric Inc. Defendant also in a house foreclosure, and revoked Certified Financial Planner's rights for lying to the CFP board about previous regulatory actions against him.




[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-10-2006).]

Ironically, a couple of days ago, a friend of mine told me he was going to make one of these suicide cords for himself, only on a slightly larger scale (to connect to his electric range receptacle). I do not know if he saw these things on eBay or not. I'm not sure if I got through to him with explanations (and even pleading) as to why this was so dangerous. Then I told him that I would report him to the local fire marshal's office if he followed through. Of course, I probably will never have any way of knowing if he actually made one of these hideous things (unless something horrible happens, God forbid), and I've probably lost a friend in the process. But if it makes him think twice and decide not to go ahead, I guess the personal loss is worth it. I'd rather have him (and his family) alive and mad at me than the other way around .

Mike (mamills)

renosteinke states "First of all, I would like to confess that I, more through luck and reading instructions, rather than having any special talents, have hooked up a few gennys, battery banks, and so on- without any transfer / backfeed problems. May this streak continue...."

There is a HUGE difference here, in the fact that you are a qualified electrician. That is your "special talent". You know the difference of what is safe and what could put others at risk. As qualified tradespeople most all of us bend the rules a bit at times, which is fine as long as the safety of life or property isn't comprimised. We also know what the consequences of our actions could be if a serious mistake was made.

This is where the difference is. Most unqualified do-it-yourselfer's have no clue, just "as long as it works".

I see that eBay has not removed this listing, even after numerous complaints from us. I guess all we can do is collectively keep bombarding eBay and the seller with complaints until the listing is removed. I did a quick count from this seller's eBay profile, and he's sold at least 15 of these instructions.

I failed a transfer switch that appeared to be a commercially available product because the input connector was a 50a female receptacle. There was no way to use this without a suicide cord.
This is more prevelant than logic would suggest.

My comments on this topic tread close to political discussion, IMHO the only sort of political discussion appropriate here: the politics of electricity delivery and use. However I understand ahead of time that this post might require 'moderation'.

Electrical safety is both relative and random. Doing things 'by the book' is not an absolute guarantee of safety, nor is not following electrical code mean a certainty of fire, death, and destruction. More to the topic at hand, the evaluation of cost versus benefit where electrical safety is concerned is very much about politics and profit.

Electricity is very easy to control and direct, and a surprisingly small amount of copper and insulation will serve to deliver a tremendous amount of power to a load. As long as nothing goes wrong, the 'zip cord' and 'twist and tape free air splices' that we comment about in the photo forum will work just fine. 14ga conductors will _probably_ be just fine on that 30A water heater, 100W lamps will probably work just fine in lamps that say 'use max 60W lamp'.

However, if there is any breakdown in the conductors or insulation directing the electricity, then that tremendous power will be delivered to the fault.

Most of a _proper_ installation is not the stuff actually necessary to deliver power to the load, but instead the stuff necessary to remain safe when something goes wrong. You simply do not need 14ga wire, junction boxes, wire nuts, or even circuit breakers to run a 120V 60W lamp. If everything worked absolutely perfectly, you could use 22ga enameled magnet wire, not in any sort of cable, snugly wrapped around the meter terminals and simply run on the surface to the lamp. Everything beyond this bare minimum is concession to the fact that things go wrong, and we want to remain safe when things go wrong. Exactly how much redundancy and protection is really worth it is _very_ difficult to quantify.

With a _proper_ electrical installation, the risks are _very_ low. So low that we don't really have a good way of even calculating the odds. And herein lies the problem. People have a very hard time properly juggling very low risks with very bad consequences. Given the choice between not having electricity, an _inexpensive_ approach that has a 1 in 10000 chance of killing someone, or an expensive approach that has a 1 in 100000000 chance of killing someone, 'common sense' would select the inexpensive approach. ('Common sense' is wrong in this case...) (note, I've pulled the numbers out of thin air; I don't know the real risks.)

At some point, even if you take the time to do the math properly, and consider all of the side effects and their costs, you hit a wall where you have to assign a dollar value to a human life, and have to evaluate extremely low risks where there really isn't sufficient data to make a good judgement. Once you hit that point, the arguments are very much about politics.

Code and listing are essentially a _political_ process whereby 'people who should know' are creating their best efforts as to where to balance the costs versus risk reduction aspects of electrical installation. But this balance most certainly includes economic self interest; just look at how the whole AFCI thing played out. Or for another example where politics, safety, economics, and human death have played out with a very unclear result is nuclear versus coal power.

The _fact_ is that if this 'suicide cord' is correctly used, it will do the job without harming anyone. Correctly used includes things like shutting off the main, connecting everything prior to starting the generator, manually shedding sufficient load, etc. There are very real risks when using this cord, including the very real possibility of simply forgetting to do things like throw the main breaker, however with only a little bit of common sense the risks are quite small.

The risks are so large that neither the NEC nor the listing agencies are willing to say 'safe enough', and the risks are large enough that they have killed people, and I would never advocate using this sort of installation, but none the less the risks are very small. Essentially a proper cost versus benefit analysis says that this cord is far too dangerous to use, but such an analysis weighs a small risk against the cost of killing someone.

IMHO this system is actually pretty darn close to something acceptable. Change the gender of the cord and add a breaker interlock system, and you have something much safer; not as safe as a full fledged transfer switch system, but probably safe enough for listing. ( I know that screw down sheet metal breaker interlocks are available for some residential panels.)

Sorry for the rant. I agree that the particular item discussed is (and should not be) acceptable. But ECs _do_ have an economic interest in proper installation of acceptably safe systems, and the decision of what is 'safe enough' is riddled with economic interests.

-Jon

When I was a small child, I got ahold of a bunch of pieces of copper wire and stuffed them into a receptacle and got shocked.

Should I blame the linemen who fed the electricity to the house for not adequately blocking electrical current from entering my hand?

Don't linemen have an "idiot stick" to tell if there's any voltage before they grab the wires, or are they dumber than a drunken plumber? Don't they have a multimeter of some kind?

Don't linemen shut off power above the break prior to working on the broken power line, in case the line is energized uphill?

Don't they protect themselves by removing the wire from a terminal downhill from the fix in case the line is energized during the fix, or are they naturally risk-takers?

Didn't the guy on ebay say to leave the main circuit breaker off?

Are circuit breakers not up to your standards to shut power off?

Do some of you think everybody is an idiot, and that they can't possibly power up their home with a generator without killing a lineman? Do you think that people have no right to keep their freezers full of meat cold, or to keep life-saving medical equipment powered up for Grandma?

Do you think that only an idiot would fly a kite in a lightning storm without a journeyman's license?

Do you think that only a journeyman electrician can drive a car? The movement of cars on city streets, with lights that tell them to go or stop, is dangerous, like electricity. Are electricians the only people smart enough to operate them? People without high school diplomas, housewives, plumbers, and borderline retards can drive cars legally.

Some of you guys are so (Removed)...so politically motivated. You're well-suited for organizations where you can politically ruin careers if somebody does something you want to cry publicly about, just because you can. Some of you can't see that there's a safe way of doing something that could be dangerous if done wrong. Some of you would rather just call everybody a fool. Some of you couldn't think outside the box if the box hit you in the head.

By the way, I've never powered up a house with a generator yet...but I do have a 5,500 watt generator. I've been through hurricanes, earthquakes, tornadoes etc. and if you haven't, you don't know the misery of long-term lack of electrical power.

Maybe somebody from New Orleans or S. Mississippi can lend something to this discussion, instead of self-aggrandizing holier-than-thou people who have no problems other than Removed

No offense...nothing personal.

Edited for absolutely non ECN-type content

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-10-2006).]

Guys, those posts are to long for my short attention span!!

Spark Master,

Cars are a perfect example of why common sense isn't, and how the creation of rules is as much based in politics as in the reality of increasing safety, and how personal responsibility and accountability is not enough when you are talking about taking risks with other people's lives.

IMHO the electrical code is much more closely tied to real safety then to just making some special interest money.

IMHO lineworkers should be grounding and testing. But an unexpectedly energized line is a substantial increase in risk to a lineworker. IMHO the increased risk of a backfed transformer is sufficient to make it reasonable to require some sort of interlock between the generator and the main in a residence.

This doesn't need to be a full up transfer switch; the interlocked breakers that I described are more than sufficient to bring the risk down to a reasonable level.

-Jon

Spark Master Flash, I have a feeing that I agree with you regarding the "off-topic" parts of your post, but I am appalled that you would even consider defending this jerk offering these instructions for this cord set.
Yes, I have been through a several day outage. Yes, I have used a generator without a transfer switch. But I did it SAFELY. I removed the circuit from the panel and wired it to the generator. Totally bypassing the service. Was it "legal"? No. Was it safe? I say yes since I had to reverse my work to go back on line, and NO male-to-male cords were used.

No one here is "holier-than-thou" regarding this topic. No one here has any monetary gain by expressing their opinions on these boards. We are preaching to the choir.
We offer these options to our customers and tell them the benefits of doing it the right and SAFE way. We cannot make anyone do it our way. We hope our customers have the brains to at least do it safely.

From the tone of your post you seem to think this guys has a good cheap emergency solution to an expensive dilema. Do you think ANY male-to-male cord is safe???

Spark Master Flash

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I will not address each of your points.

I will tell you this much.

You are dead wrong about my motives and I am willing to bet you are wrong about the other members motives.

This is not a "make work' issue to me at all.

A homeowner could go the breaker interlock route that Jon pointed out and I would not feel like I lost work over it.

The only thing that concerns me about this is the danger to others.

If this guy blows himself up I do not care.

What I do care about is this guy is leading people to believe this is safe method.

It is not a safe method no matter what you think.

Bob

Wow.. i don't believe what I read..
Sparkmaster:
Look, accidents happen do they not? Those cords are an accident WAITING TO HAPPEN!
I don't care what the dude from e-bay says about shutting off breakers or this or that.. Someone may ACCIDENTALLY FORGET TO SHUT IT OFF...
Linemen are not idiots... but what if one is in the process of grounding a presumably dead line and NOW because someone made a MISTAKE and FORGOT to open their main breaker, grounds out this line and now has a big arc in their face, not nearly as much as what it would be if the line was powered from the utility but still, there is the potential for problems! Why hack in something and have the risk of killing someone???
Lemme tell you something. I worked at an electrical supplier for about a decade, know what? most people "off the street" ARE idiots.. people would come in trying to cobble up some bastardization and you know what? I would not sell them the material because I can't, If someting were to happen, in today's world it would fall back on me because " I sold it to them!"
I now am a 4'th year apprentice with a well known electrical company in this city and we do a LOT of service work to a couple of big property / housing management company's...
Do you know how many times I get emergency calls that the "lights do not work" only to find out that the bulb in the shall we say "chandelier" is burned out or that the table lamp or even the appliance is NOT PLUGGED IN!!!
Just had one call one superintendant was whining her outside lights were on past 8:30 a.m, something HAD to be wrong.. Just had to because they said so.. Turns out at that time, EVERYONES lights are still on because it was cloudy and raining and still quite DARK, as has been the past week.. Photoswitch was fine, all in the complex were fine..

Need I say more???? Some people just do NOT have common sence.. Some people are just idiots.
Some people should not be let behind the handlebar of a shopping cart let alone behinde the wheel of an automobile!

Now, you said you had a Generator and from what you say, you think its allright to " do what you have to" to keep Grandma's life saving medical equipment running or a fridge full of food cold after a disaster??
Know what? Why not just do it correct the first time and never have to worry about it.. Go, spent the $$ and have the proper transfer switch or transfer panel installed and let it be!! I did! now I KNOW there is minimal risk to me or anyone out performing work on the grid where my residence is connected!

Oh ya by the way.. I stuck things in the receptacles too when I was a kid, got shocks and LIKED IT!, blew out fuses, left flare marks up the receptacle plates, you name it.. I quickly learned that electricty is DANGEROUS, and I think you should too..

A.D

These things have killed linesmen.

What part of that do some of us have a problem with?

Alan

This is in reply to Spark Master Flash's post:

The fact of the matter is the average D-I-Y is not TRAINED to install safe wiring. That does not make them an idiot. If everyone was allowed to wire things the way they wanted, there would be no codes to follow and no need for electricians. It looks as though I wasted my time on an apprenticeship when all I needed to do was follow some instructions I purchased on eBay.

It's true a lot of people are not aware of the dangers or electricity.
I went out to add a circuit in a residence and when I got there the panel cover was missing. I asked the homeowner where it was and she said she thought it might be in a closet somewhere. I told her we need to find it and get it installed.
What for she asked. Is that to keep the dust out.
I told her no. That is needed to keep your kids from being killed. She had young children in the house.

"These things have killed linesmen."

The issue is, the main breaker in your loadcenter, is not a transfer switch, which would provide isolation from the distribution system, or network, any connection, that may result in back feeding the utility system would not only be illegal, but criminal.

I'm not trying to drum up any work.
I've never installed a transfer switch on a home. I've never hooked up a generator to a home. I don't expect that I ever will. I have nothing financially to gain.

I'm not holier than thou, I am, though, much more trained in the dangers than someone that would order these instructions.I just don't want to see people get killed.

That said, I also don't like editing posts from members that know better.let's please try to keep the posts within the scope and terms of service of this forum. Thanks


[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-11-2006).]

Even more unbelievable is that this idiot has another auction started with the same item....


Perhaps ebay should be made aware of those actions, anyone with the legal know-how around?

Jon, I really can't tell from your post, aside from politics, and reliable safety, (At any even a marginal level) if you were for against this tripe being marketed to the general public?

Aside from back feeding a main, and killing a linesman, the item is not safe by any design, reguardless of codes, politics of liability, and/or personal responcabilty. That said, we are a country of laws and standards for reasons to great to even go into. Technically what this guy is doing is fraud by representation, that his instruction is anywhere close to safe for a consumer with no electrical training what-so-ever.

Will it work yes... I have wired probhably a hundred buildings in some of the scariest wiring methods one can think of while in the military, but not that method with a male cord... Usually a generator (30-500kw) with some undersized wire direct to some kearneys connecting whatever was left of abandon buildings in a war ravaged land, direct to the lugs, and no OCP except the failure of the generator or wire. Wire whole camps for 20,000 with # 8 draped over the top of tents to tapped 12/2 SOJ to feed lights and recepticals in a few hundred tents with nothing but a thin layer of tape over the connections and not a single J-box, CB, or GFI connected to 2 parraleled 500kw gennies. Airfield lighting with 600+v running over the asphalt across the taxiways. I could go on and on. It worked! Was it any way shape or form safe by our standards, no. It was "field expediant", it worked. But the odds of getting shot at were much higher than getting electrocuted. Electrical wiring standards did not exsist. But I never did something like what this guy is selling.

Here in a first world country, I would never do those things above, or promote them. If the guy was selling instructions in detail on how to do it properly to a first world standard, I would have absolutely no problem with that. (Female cord, transfer/interlock... whatever)

Even something as silly and ghetto expediant as this below... It works, but in the very least promotes some safety. Even though, if you drop that inverter off the air cleaner of your running engine you would get 50 lashes with a cable for your stupidity.






[This message has been edited by e57 (edited 01-10-2006).]

http://bobhedges.com/resume/resume.htm
This guy is not stupid. He even has a master's degree in (REMOVED)
He's just not that bright.



[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-11-2006).]

Nice resume...

Anyway, no offense Theelectrikid...

But this was brought to our attention by a kid in middle school, who knows better, than Bob.

I think we are overlooking the point of LEARNING before DOING.

Generators, and secondary sources of electricity, are nothing new. Over the past century, we've learned what works, as well as what can go wrong. From this, we have developed various rules and practices- which can work ONLY if everyone is 'singing off the same sheet of music!'

Transfer switches cost more than a cord with two plugs simply because they have too- in order to do the job, provide the safety protection, that they must. Some are even fancier, and thus pricier, than others.

Now, maybe all those folks who put all that time working on the electric code were misguided fools. Maybe the folks at the testing labs were deluded. OR- maybe our solitary internet "expert" is an uneducated loose cannon, rolling about, looking for a ship to sink.

"Due diligence" is a fancy way of saying you should take the time to learn about something before you attempt to do it.

As I made clear in an earlier post, there is a LOT more at stake here than a blown breaker. We're talking about a set-up where, if everything is not absolutely perfect, you get an immediate, catastrophic, life-threatening failure of some part of the system. One moment you're flippig a switch, pulling a plug- and the next you're surrounded by hellfire, on your way to St. Peter!

E57,

Sorry I buried it so far down as to make it unclear:


I totally agree that this system is not acceptable. But it dangerous in the same way that driving with a BAC of 0.2 is dangerous; you will _probably_ get home just fine, but the chances that you will kill yourself or someone else are so much greater than 'baseline' that the danger is unacceptable and illegal.

-Jon

Thank you Mark. I do agree that somehow, someway this guys must be stopped. I've reported him to eBay, and e-Mailed him. This guy can be an idiotic murderer, and he wouldn't even know it.

Ian A.

Having a device like this being sold on a public website like EBay, sets a whole new precedence.
As has been mentioned above, these devices and others like them can and have killed line-workers in the past.
To blame a line-worker for thier in-attention during an outage, for some idiot down the road, is just stupidity in itself.
That "idiot-stick" that someone referred to above, is a one shot test, current at the time that it was performed.
While the HV side should always be Earthed while being worked upon, exactly how do you do that when you have a whole set of poles and lines lying on the ground?.
IMHO, if you want to use a genny on permanently installed wiring, get a transfer switch.
The thing that would concern me most would be if the CB on the genny was bypassed because it couldn't deliver the expected current.

Explain to my co-workers wife, why a guy needed heat and A/C while my mate died from a back-feed??.
I go with NORCAL's idea.

[This message has been edited by Trumpy (edited 01-12-2006).]

I suppose someone might use a 2 way switch (SPDT) light switch to transfer an individual load (like a fridge) from POCO supplied power via the usual circuit breaker panel to power supplied by a local generator via some form of over current protection. The switch's center contact is the load, one end the POCO and other end the generator. Probably not code, as such switches are not specifically designed or listed for such service (and might fail POCO shorted to genrator). And thus not trustworthy enough to protect linesmen.

He's at it again.. 6028694154

here's the link to complain..
http://cgi1.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=InlineSelfHelpWebform&wftype=2023&rcode=BN%25P10305&subject=Encouraging%20Illegal%20Activity&bcrumb=%20eBay%20Policies%20% 3E%20Prohibited%20and%20Restricted%20Items%20%20Encouraging%20Illegal%20Activity

[This message has been edited by techie (edited 01-12-2006).]

Even Lowes' website says NOT to plug it into a wall outlet:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=BuyGuide/SelectGenerator.html#4
Click on Safety Considerations.

Ian A.



[This message has been edited by Theelectrikid (edited 01-14-2006).]

I found a link where unsafe items can be reported to the CPSC...

https://www.cpsc.gov/incident.html

I'm curious if there is something they can do with this...

FYI Also... DO you think we had something to do with this guy changing his "warning" on his page???

Ebays suicide cord


now reads


I think he's just trying to pad his disclaimer with what we've written him

The bad thing is, a lot of innocent people viewing this will probably have to hit the dictionary for the term "Lineman."

Ian A.

Well whadaya know!
"The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale."

I wonder if he will re-list. I know I'll be keeping tabs.

*typo*

[This message has been edited by Speedy Petey (edited 01-15-2006).]

the guys in the high voltage forum at www.line-man.com were also not to happy to see this on E-Bay.

Spark Master Flash
I see nothing holier-than-thou about a group of people being concerned about public safety. Especially when the situation in question has already been deemed unsafe by the entire industry. I also don’t think anyone has insinuated that everyone is an idiot, but apparently your IQ was still developing when you stuck the wire in the receptacle and got shocked. Point made that some people do need protecting from themselves sometimes. Grandma will be just fine and legal with a regular extension cord.
Im sure this guy doesn’t rely on this item for his livelihood. He is no doubt arrogant and safety is not on his list of concerns.
Someone needs to speak out why not those of us who work with electricity every day.
We have a right to speak our opinion no matter what you think.
Are you sure that every one knows which breaker is the main or even what a main breaker is?
Does every one have a main?
What if they have fused main?
What would have happened to you when you were a child obviously left unattended, if you decided to unplug the hot cord from the dryer receptacle?
What if someone gets drunk and forgets to follow instructions?
What if the instruction holder is not around when power is restored?
Are you really an electrician?

What would be wrong with emailing the people who have already purchased this item and make them aware that it is unsafe and illegal?

As mentioned above, I already sent out warnings to all the purchasers from his last two auctions.. including his last purchaser, who is a member of this board, who say he bought it in order to leave negative feedback for the seller.

Sorry techie, I missed your previous post.
Guess we will never know, but all this fuss could save a life.

Whoever sence44 is he should go back and add another reply to that feedback.
The jerk seller added a comment that sence44 was a "Disgruntled electrican".

mbhydro,
that's my post from another lineman forum...glad to see it got around to another forum...the more, the merrier

Tom

Found this while replacing a panel with a burned up bus. Owner bought the house with the generator and suicide cord. Once I told her if she used it she could kill a linesman or herself she said to do whatever it takes to make it right (shes an attorney)so I installed a manual transfer switch.



edited to size picture to screen

[This message has been edited by electure (edited 01-20-2006).]