ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Tips for newbie engineer?

SteveFehr ---

Since you have a degree, you know how to read.

You do not need to read all of the codes. You only need to read those portions that pertain to your work.

If you are doing design/specification work, you should have no problem.

If you are inspecting, unless you know all the "right" ways of doing everything you will have problems.

Don't confuse my title; I'm n00b to international commercial electrical design, but I'm an experienced engineer and an expert in my (well, previous) field. There seems to be an ongoing fued between engineers and technicians/electricians, one always cursing the other! I can't tell you how many times I've cursed the $&#%@&*&^$#^& electricians for ignoring my instructions and doing whatever the hell they felt like, only to do it wrong and have to rip it all out and do it again. It goes both ways, you know

There are certain things an electrician is more expert on and other things the engineer is more expert on. If my drawings say to put in a particular type of cable with a specific type of conduit, I expect him to follow those instructions- there are "big picture" things you don't necessarily see when you're doing a specific part of a larger job. Likewise, the engineers usually get more tied up in the overall design and don't get involved in the details- I'd never go down and tell an electrician how to strip wires, or install an outlet box, for instance. I tell the technician to install an M83522/16-DNX ST-fiber optic connector with <.75dB light loss, but not the polishing technique to make it pass, etc. Occassionally I'll have to detail something out if there are special circumstances, but if that's the case, I always try to put notes on the drawing spelling that out in plain english to try to prevent "re-engineering." I could give ya'll examples of routing waveguide where the installer thought he knew better than the engineer and ended up costing the navy half a million dollars, but I don't think it's really necessary.

That said, I know this forum has a lot of highly experienced people and I value your experience and your input, which is why I made this post asking your advice! Speaking of which: I'm vaguely aware of cable slap from a thread on here about a faulty elevator; when does it really become a problem? Is this something I'll have to be taking into account or only extremely rarely an issue?

It seems the bigger the things get, the more similar they become. If you take two small panels, one to the east of the Atlantic and one to the west of it you will find:

US: A metal cabinet with steel conduit with the breakers placed horisontally
EU: A plastic box with cables with the breakers placed vertically.

If you open them you find different color schemes and two different busbar designs. If there is a busbar in the plastic box, that is.

Steve:

Take a look at these threads:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000329.html https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000391.html
It contains a discussion of that nature.

I'll look for the other thread which goes into more detail on the topic and edit it into this post. Edit: here it is!:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005708.html

Tony

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 10-16-2005).]

[This message has been edited by mxslick (edited 10-16-2005).]

>>>when it comes to things electrical, it is the electrician who is the expert. Period.

John, I completely and severly disagree with this comment.

I seen to many Bull $#!* pumped up resume's from "journeyman" electricians to belive this.
Eight out ten electricians can not do what they claim to be able to do.
I've hired guys specifically for what they claim their abilities are and got that "deer in the headlights look" when I aksed them to do it.
Truley qualified help is hard to find. Hopefully the guy they are working for is the "expert. period."

Rob

Well said, SE!. If BS were counted like donations, I'd have received as much as the Red Cross and Salvation Army combined!

However- there was a recent proposal to the NEC that defined any PE as the "expert." While it may be fair to expect every electrician to know that "Klein pliers" is not German for "very small hand tool," it struck me as absurd to define a bridge-building PE as having more expertise than the combined membership of the IBEW.

Pick any college you want, and look at the courseload for an electrical engineer. While they MIGHT have a course or two that is of use to the power company, it is quite concievable that their best students graduate without ever even hearing of the NEC- let alone ever seeing a copy. Theirs' is a different 'trade' entirely, only incidentally concerned with running wires from "point A" to "point B"- then making something work!

Let me put it this way: if I want to understand how my radar-guided laser fly zapper works, an EE is the guy to ask. But- to get power to it so it works, the Sparky is the man!

I would just like to say that I respect everyone in this communitee, whether the Engineer or the Electrician. Being here learning and taking the time to teach brings us all to a better understanding of our chosen occupations.

I just want to thank all of you for what I learn from this forum and from those whom I meet in the field. I hope that someday I may become an expert in anything (I would like to publically acknowledge that I am not the expert at harassing my wife and sons no matter what they claim). I am particularly proud though that I can learn and hope to pass on what I have learned.

Shane Brown P.E. (with a meager 17 years experience)

Not to derail the derail, but I figured I should give an update now that I've been working in this new job a week. I still don't know exactly what I'm supposed to be doing, but HAVE been asking questions and lots of them!

The foremost I had after this discussion was about the codes we had to follow, but it turns that that even though we're doing work worldwide and nationwide under a vast plethora of local codes, we're the US DoD working on federal installations and nobody really holds us to anything. So, we work to NEC 2005 and pretty much just NEC 2005 and act as both engineers and inspectors to ensure the contractors doing the installation work do it properly. As the vast majority of this work is the same thing we've done everywhere else, it's mostly just a rollover of what we've done before and not a whole lot of places to screw up. Also, the bar is set very low- because my predesessor was an civil engineer with minimal EE background filling for the vacant EE slot, they let the contractor do most of the EE work and just rubber-stamp it with minimal input. Which is likely what I'll do the first few installs until I can build up my knowledge base, get familiar with NEC and the mil-handbooks and really get a grip on where improvements can be made.

For the time being, I'm jumping feet-first into the ladder logic of the PLCs running the gensets which seemed a good place to start

Thanks for your input everyone!

Steve..first of all, I want to thank you for not taking my earlier, harsher tone personally. Not only was I speaking in general terms, but I was also in the midst of the sort of job that would scare kids on Halloween!

My partner entered the Navy as a simple seaman- and left decades later as a Lt. Commander, having hit every stop along the way. Electricians' mate to Engineering Officer, with full "Line Officer" qualifications. This experience led to his getting an Electrical Contractors' license- so he can "approve" plans just like any archetect or engineer out there.
Yet there are some out there who would consider him "unqualified," or an "engineer" to automatically be his professional "superior." Sound silly? I think so.

Now, I can't speak for others, but I have often heard the opinion expressed that the "trades" were for those "not good enough" for college. My experience has shown this to be simply wrong.
Most any journeyman, in any trade, has put in the time (experience) and received the training to, in my opinion, equal what anybody puts in to get a four-year degree.
Nor is my opinion wholly without basis; most apprenticeship programs culminate in an Associates' degree....just ad the missing art appreciation courses, and they've got a Bachelors'.

A man with a few years as a contractor has arguably achieved the equivalent of a Masters'.

So look at your lead people with great "attention to detail." These folks didn't get where they are without having their act together. Even little things....such as the order in which wires are connected...often have a subtle logic behind them.

Every few years, a new code come out. When this happens, the guys who "learned it right" are seldom perturbed; the code has simply caught up with them. It's the guys who are self-taught, or who've been doing as little as possible ("designing to code") who are put out!

I'm near a college- and every once in a while, there is panic on campus as "exams" approach. In the trades, every day is an exam. You flip that switch, and either something works- or you don't get paid!

The cardinal sins of engineers these days seem to be:
-poor attitudes learned in school
-failure to actually see the job in person
-letting the CAD program do all the work.


As for codes: they can only be understood in their own context. Codes are developed AFTER the trades have figured things out. If your equipment is comparable to American equipment, supplied in a manner similar to an American utility, then the NEC makes perfect sense. But- try to apply the NEC, or American practices- to Brit gear, and may very well create a hazard. Watch your tradesmen....and later, after they've had a chance to "suss things out," ask them to explain themselves.

Good luck Steve, I can understand your position very well. I to am the designer and AHJ (Federal Government)and inherited my job from a Civil Engineer. I had the advantage that he was still around, had a photographic memory, and though he did not give me hands on experience himself, he sent me out the first day with an old salt electrician working in the dry wells of sewage lift stations. I am glad for this experience and many others with him before they retired or moved on and still get out with the hands-on end when possible or needed.

That said "renosteinke" has some very good advice and I hope that you are working with only US listed parts and systems to avoid complications, otherwise you will need to be knowledgable on these also.

My advice is get a good working relationship with one doing the installs who has credentials. I don't mean become drinking buddy's, but a relationship where both you and they can learn and grow. At first this may be pretty much one-way, from them to you, but you will be able to help them in some areas. Everyone has strengths.

You being new, they may also bring out that something that has always been done is stupid and suggest a change. Get all the info you can, explain that you will study this out and get back with them, but direct them to continue on as before. You take this and both of you can study it out, you may find the reason and need to keep it like it is, or indeed it may be stupid. Then armed with knowledge you can make the change.

Next get code training. Get yourself signed up for classes even if you do not have the budget. I recommend any training that I have received from IAEI, also my state and neighboring ones offer free to very inexpensive training partially paid for with fees collected from building permits and anyone can attend. (I should have checked your profile.) See if you have that avenue available.

Use this bulletin board, these people are great and very knowledgable. I know that many of these people teach code.

When a source runs dry or you you see where you are outgrowing it, find another. I may not know much, but I can ussually find someone who does.

Most importantly, share what you learn with others. It solidifies your knowledge and with and open mind, it will correct it and add to it.

Shane