ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Increasing demand factors in residential
by gfretwell - 03/28/24 12:43 AM
Portable generator question
by Steve Miller - 03/19/24 08:50 PM
Do we need grounding?
by NORCAL - 03/19/24 05:11 PM
240V only in a home and NEC?
by dsk - 03/19/24 06:33 AM
Cordless Tools: The Obvious Question
by renosteinke - 03/14/24 08:05 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
1 members (gfretwell), 32 guests, and 14 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 276
T
Member
It's that 6th-sense gut instinct that separates the sheep from the goats in troubleshooting. Maybe it comes from years of experience, or from a thorough training in seeing the "big picture" when it comes to a problem, but you either got it or you don't. The best guys at it that I have worked with seem to be able to almost see or smell where the trouble spot is and know where to start looking. Any amateur can follow a flow chart and waste 6 man-days locating the source of trouble starting with item A and troubleshooting all the way through to item Z, but the best guys get to the problem much much quicker. That's the part that can't be taught.

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 91
G
Member
Then again, sometimes that same instinct backfires, and the simple problem went overlooked while we were following the hunch. [Linked Image]

I am good at troubleshooting, but the funny part is I cannot visualize a mistie once I have discovered how to fix it. Without fail, I will murk along in confusion, then the [Linked Image] goes off, and I fix it. Someone can come along thirty seconds later, and I cannot accurately describe a 'schematic' of the original setup of the problem to save my fanny.

I think standard troubleshooting can be taught, but intuitive troubleshooting is the mark of a true Jedi. [Linked Image]


-George
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,498
Likes: 1
C
C-H Offline
Member
I think it can be taught. Personally I learn it the way e57 describes:

Quote
The way I see it, if someone is capable of building a circuit of (X) complexity. They should be able to troubleshoot at (X) complexity.

With a complexity of X^2 I'm completely lost. [Linked Image]

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,876
E
e57 Offline OP
Member
Love that Jedi comment [Linked Image]

I think I can put some basic rules of troubleshooting basic lighting and power circuits on to a single sheet of paper. Simple enough for the average 4 year journeyman to understand. Two sheets of paper tops. Its not that hard.

Motor and systems controls, different story.

And, yes, I totally agree, experiance does count for a lot in this area. So does the willingness to learn....


Mark Heller
"Well - I oughta....." -Jackie Gleason
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,391
I
Moderator
I can not agree more with Don. [Linked Image]

Quote
You can teach the theory and techniques, but being able to do it effectively cannot be taught.
Don

A person can go to school to become an executive and they may retain all that they have learned it still does not mean they will be an effective executive.

Bob


Bob Badger
Construction & Maintenance Electrician
Massachusetts
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
J
Member
I have read some pretty interesting comments in this thread. I have been doing electrical work for more years than some in here is old (over 35years) and have been a part-time instructor for over five years. I have worked in every aspect of the electrical field from mobile homes to high rise buildings. From strip malls to chemical plants and a church or two in between. I have installed electrical circuits in furniture stores, plants and showrooms. During my experiences I have dabbled a couple of times in the maintenance fields of furniture, chemical and tried a bakery a time or two.

When it comes to trouble shooting electrical circuits’ weather they are an electronic or a motor control circuit if the person doing the trouble shooting does not understand the circuit they will be lost.

I have a couple of students that came from the back of a rip saw in a furniture plant that in two years time have made it to the top of their maintenance departments. One of these students is the assistant plant electrician in his plant.

Trouble shooting is a matter of understanding what you are working on and the ability to reduce the circuit to a simple circuit. The complexity of this computer that I am typing on can be brought down to a simple circuit consisting of a power source, a load, and a path for current to flow. Knowing the amount of current, the size of the load, and the path the current is to take is the hard part of troubleshooting the circuits of this computer. The basic theory of electricity is no different in the circuits in this computer and in the circuits on a house, store or motor control circuit.

The bottom line of troubleshooting comes down to how well I understand the circuits of the piece of equipment I am working on. In a troubleshooting class the first problem one of my students will face is a four gain box with four three way switches and four minutes to make the lights burn. This box is in a finished wall. One switch is fed in this box, one switch is fed from the other end and two switches are fed from the light with one switch being the end of the circuit and the other switch if fed through to the other switch and back to the light. Remember only four minutes, as any good maintenance man knows time is money. Once this is mastered we move on to other things. No troubleshooter in the field today will make it if they can’t solve the four three way switches.
[Linked Image]


Mike
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 680
W
Member
Patience is a key, I see alot of "techs" who freak out when things don't go right. They lose it and there goes any chance of figuring out the problem. If someone really understands the theory( and by that I mean as applied in the real world), they should be able to troubleshoot. Whether they are good at it depends on their ability to work under pressure, with people looking over their shoulders and the amount of patience they have.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,445
Likes: 2
Cat Servant
Member
I don't think it'a a matter of patience, as much as a matter of understanding what the machine is supposed to do, as well as being systematic about it.

That manager has an attutude I've often found at poorly-run places, that pay as little as possible, skimp on benifits, have little or nothing in the way of preventive maintenance, want nothing but continuous production 24/7, and sure as heck aren't about to spend either a dime or the time training anyone.

A schematic or ladder diagram is an amazingly helpful thing to have- especially if it has been kept "up to date" and reflects changes. Then "troubleshooting " is pretty much a matter of either starting at one end and working through it, or by 'working by halves.'

"Working by halves" is wher you start in the middle- then you progress to the left or right, depending upon whether everything is OK where you started.

Besides knowing how to read the things- and it amazes me how many maintenance persons have never had someone spend five minutes with them explaining them- one needs to understand how the various sensors can either be fooled, or misbehave.(Ever have a photocell get confused by the light it controls?)

We're all inclined to make quick guesses...and often we're right. My own rule is this: two quick guesses, and then we start over, being systematic, and checking all our assumptions- beginning with "is it pluged in?"

I really feel the attitudes of managers who consider people 'disposable' and try to make the person fit the slot is short-sighted. As I see it, it is part of the manager's job to lead and develop his crew. If your platoon has an excess of riflemen but needs a radio operator, you don't toss a rifleman aside- you train one of them to work the radio! Yet, many firms do exactly that; they fire/ lay-off someone they "don't need," while running an ad for a replacement.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 32
G
Member
"Cutting the problem in half" is an excellent way to get going. The power of 2 allows you to slice something down very fast. The other question I used to ask as soon as I came in on a support call "can you draw a circle around the problem". This might be a huge circle that includes everything in the room but you hope they have at least got it down to one box, interface or process.
Sometime is is good to just figure out what IS working.
Experience is important when you know what hardware usually breaks and what never breaks but you have to understand if this was what "always" happens the other guy would have fixed it. [Linked Image]

On a support call you should ask the other guys what they know about the problem. You may "see" the problem before you see the box. The best situation is when they see it too once they hear it all out loud. I always let the other guy fix something if they figured it out in the coffee chat. Builds confidence.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
Member
Three factors make a great troubleshooter.

Cool temperment under pressure and frustration.

Raw IQ -- pure intelligence.

An intuitive mental frame of mind.

I take it for granted that any troubleshooter would be schooled in the basics.

A phenomenal troubleshooter would have a wide ranging interest in science and technology and understands the underlying mechanisms.


Tesla
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5