ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area bathroom GFCI in old house

Sierra, according to the original post, this family is now using the receptacle in the light fixture, so the loads must not be a problem. With this in mind, let's imagine they will have children in this bathroom and they can't or won't spend the money on a new circuit.

Now, at some point you could have installed a not so code proper GFCI receptacle to take the place of this cheap non compliant receptacle but refused and a child was electrocuted, how would you feel?

I know that was not a fair question, but if you were in Cvelectrics position, some soul searching might be necessary.

Another FWIW, when I said I would do it, I surely wouldn't expect all others to jump on my wagon for obvious reasons.

Roger

Roger, you have a heartfelt point. But, if you choose to do the project the result could be the same. If choose not to do project you will still be in buisness the next day.
If someone got hurt on your work the guilt would be far greater than if they got hurt on an existing problem.

Not to sound cold but, I would run away from that job.

cvelectric did not state that the cust is dirt poor and can't afford to have the work done correctly. He did mention the plug in the light as a short-cut.

Rob

Sometimes pure theory and soapbox legalism need to take a back seat. Our inspectors look at it this way: 1) have we made anything (even the slightest bit) less safe? 2) have we made anything (even the slightest bit) more safe? The answers are 1) no. we have not put any more load on the exsisting circuit nor have we placed any part of the circuit in a position to become less safe. 2) yes, tremendously. We have not made the system any safer for the building or eqpt but we have put the person in a much safer position. Therefore, assuming (yeah we know ass out of u and me)the new recep is not in a location that can be reached somewhat easily (like from an unfinished basement below) they look at this the same as a replacement, not as a new installation.
Let's look at this another way. If that customer had called you to repair/replace the light socket in the fixture would you do it? If you do, you have knowingly reinstalled a non GFI protected outlet in their bathroom. So now the guy has the option of being in the dark, or having no recep (because you can't reinstall the fixture) or spending lots of money for us to chop and patch his house up to get a circuit there.
Just my 2 cents. That's how we look at it around here.

Great replies, thank you. This is just one of many dilemas that I think we all have at one time or another. This is really a great site to go where there are thoughtful people with experience in the field. I probably will insist they install a dedicated circuit for the GFCI but it is tempting to call the inspector and ask as Roger suggested. These people do have some money but I got the impression from the HO that they would not do it if it were a big job. They might just call someone who will do it and I lose them as a customer. So be it. In this buisiness I am always thinking about my exposure to liability. It does bother me that there seems to be so many unlicensed, uninsured people(that probably don't pay taxes) doing the work. They are carefree when it comes to things like this since there really seems to be no enforcement or penalties for it. Sorry about the rant.

Cv if they would rather lat a hack do it the wrong way that's their choice. I don't need customers like that. I don't care what the situation is I wouldn't do it. If it goes bad you are screwed. I think tapping a 55 year old circuit and putting in a nice new gfci gives the impression that you can use the receptacle for anything and everything. Where do you other guys draw the line? Kitchen receptacles? Just branch off the closest light?

Scott, what if this was in an area that was using an older code? Would the ink (or lack of ink) on the pages of the older code book make it a safer installation?

It would be the same, and in this case by allowing it under the older code it makes a safer bathroom. It is kind of sad that by progression we have eliminated a simple solution to make a home safer.

Roger

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 02-18-2005).]

IMO safety from electrocution overrides safety from overload (which is protected also). The primary job is to replace the non-gfci outlet.

Dave

So just throw the code out the window? To me the Code is clear. This is a new installation, period. Therefore it must comply with the code in effect at the time of installation. What annoys me about this is that the people just don't want to do it if it is a big deal. If they have no regard for their own safety I say let em fry. By the way, if the inspector said "sure do it to hell with the code I am supposed to enforce" and something happens, do you think he is going to take the fall for you. I don't.

Right again Scott, the inspector has no liability to any project. Just because he doesn't see it doesen't mean its a leagal install. Even if he gave his blessing, its still not to code and the contractor is liable. He may be gone by the time something happens... then what?
There is no statute of limitation on code. Once you install your product is your liability forever.

Rob

If I were to touch it, I would go with the 20A ckt. and GFCI outlet. Safety is #1, or tell them to have a nice day.