ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Homeowner pack service panels

hbiss,
I think I know where you are coming from. This is not to "bash" you in any way but listen.
I buy from the box stores for a couple different reasons. One being convenience. They are everywhere.
Prices, somethings are cheaper there.
Selection, ever since Siemens got the accounts, most of my suppliers dropped carrying ITE stuff. I am not going to change my whole business because my supply house changes vendors.

Now give this a thought. If like you want, the box stores stopped selling the stuff and they had to call you. For you that would be great, more business, better profits. You benifit. Now then, Pep boys won't sell you brake pads so you can change your brakes on the weekend. Only licensed shops can now do that. Now you have to pay someone to do that.
They benefit, you lose.
Walmart doesn't sell jack stands, oil, or oil filters. You can only get your oil changed at participating dealers. They benefit, you lose.
You now can't buy drugs at the drug store if you are not a pharmacist. No creams, no aspirin, no Benedryl for you or your kids colds. Pharamicist benifits, you lose.

Point of my scenerio here is there is always going to be give and take with everything. What right do I have to force you to take your car somewhere to change the oil? Who gave me the right to decide that.
On the other shoe, who gave you the right to tell Johnny Homeowner, if he wants to replace a receptacle, add a light, replace his own service cable, he can't buy the stuff on his own, and do his own work?

Some homeowners are quite bright, some are downright boneheads. Let the good Lord sort them out.It's not my job to decide who can do what and when....

Now having said that, the box stores do not bother me so much because they are in the Residential supply chain of things. Me, I am more Commercial and Light Industrial end of things. Maybe if there was a Industrial Depot on every corner selling VFD drives and PLC's , maybe I could join your complaint.....


Dnk........

Although I am not an EC, I do think it would be good for me to weigh in on this hot button issue. I hope this post all fits.

My job periodically involves working with ECs. What I do is design and/or manage computer/network data centers (from small to large). For this I, or my clients, must use licensed electricians to do electrical work. Still, I specify what work needs to be done, and to the extent I know all the theory and code rules, I can make those specifications correct the first time and not have work halt, and expenses needlessly go up, because there is an issue such as a code violation.

More of my work involves designs that I never physically go on site to see. But in a few cases I have, either as a consultant, or as an employee. And many times we already have the materials needed for the work in stock. In other cases, I can buy the materials at substantial discount, such as through surplus outlets So much of the work I order involves just labor (and their experience in doing it right) and our material. And with only one exception, I've never had any ECs bothered by not getting material markup. The ones that do good work get called again for future work. The one that refused to do the work because he couldn't sell us all the material at his markup never got called again, even for work we didn't have the materials for (which is more than half). I'd rather keep calling the same EC over again and have a good working relationship, so it needs to be one that can deal with the variety of conditions.

And I have occaisionally bought materials at the box stores. But I've also bought them at the local electrical supply, too. And I've bought them at surplus auctions (often a good source of partial spools of wire cheap), through online vendors, and even Ebay.

That said, I'll also tell you that I am currently designing a house I plan to build in the next several years. The design is nowhere near done with several plans still viable. The electrical wiring (and other things like plumbing, heating, cooling, etc) are being considered as part of the designs. There are issues like where the service entrance goes and how the kitchen is laid out. You may think it's silly to juggle the design to do things like minimize the total amount of wire being installed. But actually, doing design optimization is what I have the most fun with. Balancing all that while making it all safe, and code compliant, is the challenge. And I like a challenge. At least this one is all mine.

When the house finally gets built, it's not going to be a DIY work project; I'll be hiring an electrician/EC to do the work. But I will have done the design, and probably already have bought most of the material or at the very least have picked the exact models. Things like which circuit goes in which breaker slot, and what route the wire will run through the structure, will already be specified. The whole thing will be built on a computer in advance. Then I will watch the trades make it a reality.

I hope that gives a clear perspective of what kind of person I am.

I'm glad I don't live in Chicagoland (or other places like New York, New Jersey, California, and Massachusetts). I certainly don't like the idea that I'm told to do things in excess of what is generally considered safe, despite the fact that I probably will do a lot of that kind of thing, anyway. The issue is the freedom of choice. I want to be safe, but I think it should be my choice as to exactly how safe I will be, and how to make it fit into what I'm doing. And if you have ever been with me out on the shooting range, you'll know why they call me the "safety nazi".

I can understand the feeling that "someone ought to do something about it" when you see those handyman special wiring jobs. I've looked at a lot of the pictures Joe Tedesco has posted, and many would make me flee in terror. But I also feel that prohibiting the sale of the material is not going to stop DIYers from doing those things. It's just going to make the smarter DIYers mad because now we (I consider myself one) have to go patronize the flea markets where all that stuff will show up anyway (with questionable quality). And in some cases, work that really needs to be done (replacing an antique fuse box or removing dilapidated K&T) just won't get done.

The more the law prohibits something that people really want to do, the more you end up losing control over them, because they are going to do it anyway. Instead, the approach should be the opposite. Embrace the DIYers. Then offer (free, or not very costly) workshops to teach them how to do things right. Team up with other ECs in the area to do this so you don't have all the burden yourself. The results can be more DIYers that work safer, and more DIYers that better know their own limits can call you in to do what they (now know) they can't handle. Make sure they understand the local HO permit and inspection process. Make sure they know the insurance issues. Make sure they know how it impacts their home resale value to do it right.

My work is not unlike your own; it's just in a different area.

I'd sure benefit if the law required everyone to use the expertise of people like myself. Improperly installed computers and server abound on the internet. If the law required everyone to hire someone like myself to install and manage them, we'd certainly have far less spam and network attacks than we do now. Most people are still not even aware that their "always online" computers are being used by kids in Russia to launch huge attacks on major businesses like Amazon.

But, I would oppose such a law. It would be a case of work done the right way, for the wrong reason. And a few of you might well know how to install and run computers so they are not a hazard to the internet; you should be allowed to do so on your own.

A discussion so common in Reno that I can script it in advance goes like this:
HO: How much $$$ to replace my fusebox with breakers?
EC: $800+
HO: But I can get the panel & breakers for $200 at the box store!
EC: Sure, but there is lots of real, skilled work. It often takes two days. And you need many other parts as well.
HO: I still think you need to sharpen your pencil.
EC: Here's the ground rod. Here's the tool to drive it. You put it in, and I'll knock $100 off the price.
HO (an hour later): $800 sounds good to me. Oh- and how do I get the last five feet into the ground?

How about we market " The Home Lobotomy Kit " Just Kidding , What gets me going is when I am in one of those big box stores and hear what the sales people are telling the customers ! I feel part of the problem is the stores do not hire experienced people who know what is right or wrong. I have heard a clerk at HD tell a lady that she must use 10-2 romex because it is going to second floor of her house !
I am thinking about hanging out at these stores and giving out my card and telling the customers that when what they bought / tried doesn't work to call me.

Thought I'd seen this before... Try this:
https://www.electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum18/HTML/000061.html

There's a link in there about Chicago and NM cable (verboten).

Some times I get to laugh at the DIY HO who installs local code forbidden items. Here it's MC and AC cable which can be installed with special permission only. ( BTW you will not get it 99.99% of the time). Just saw a house where the HO did his own wiring for a new house after taking one of those afternoon classes on how to install a switch and an outlet. He told the GC that he was not goimg to pay for those "G.D. expensive electricians" ran MC cable every where did not get permit and told electrical inspector that code was for electricians only and to get off his property and do not come back. Well now he cannot get a certifivcate of occupancy or the power hooked up. Now wants a price the install the electrical system to code but do not damage his paint of drywall.
I told him that when the drywall is removed and all his prior work is removed, I'll inspect then give him a price. Am the 4th EC to tell him that.
Also,do not know who, some one tipped off his insurance company can't close on the house because his insurance company dropped him and he still has to pay the bank.

Let fools and the DIYers do what they want they are going to any way. Our time will come and then let them pay and pay and pay.

nesparky, why do they have a problem there with MC and AC cable?

Hi,
I have seen "Value Packs" and "Contractor Packs" but have never seen any "Homeowner Packs".

-regards

Greg

nesparky ---

The federal courts look poorly upon licensed professionals not helping out people who put themselves in such a hole.

I agree that homeowner packs should not be sold. They never have the correct breakers.

George, please expound.