ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Fired An EC

The GEC is required by 250.24 to be connected to the service disconnect. That's what this guy didn't do.

The supplemental ground from the sub panel ground bus in the building to the grid is not required by the NEC, but is a design issue that I'm sure has been proven to be beneficial in all of these installations else it wouldn't be required.

-Hal

Trumpy asked; “but wouldn't the Earthing system for the Tower be a Grid system, made up of bare copper?

Yes. FWIW I used the word grid only to convey what is there is beyond what the code requires. It is actually a combination of three ring/rod systems. One around the building, tower, and fence line. The rings are interconnected by radial/rods, and the radials extend out several hundred feet to each tower guy support and any pad used like the “H” frame for AC service. All the ring/radials is 2/0 stranded tinned copper. There is also a grid laid between the tower and building made of a pre-manufactured #6 AWG on 6-inch center welded at the grid intersection. Plus there is a chemical rod between the tower and building located at the base of the building where all the coaxes and services enter the building. Everything is CAD welded together.

On the building the is a copper bulkhead located on the tower side. This bulkhead is bonded to the ring/chem-rod with three 6-inch wide copper straps. The bulkhead is where all the coaxes, alarms, Telco. Etc enter the building. Where these cables pass through the bulkhead, we have special surge arrestors made by PolyPhaser that mount in the hole in the bulkhead. The Bulkhead also has a “Z” shaped structure that forms a large ground buss for us to use to bond all the equipment in a radial/parallel fashion called a Master Ground Bar (MGB).

All the radio/transport equipment, rectifiers/batteries, cable trays, conduit, AC main panel, everything is electrically isolated from incidental contact with the floor, walls and ceiling. In other words it is like everything is floating in thin air. Then the AC ECG bus, DC return bus, all equipment frames, raceways, etc is bonded to the MGB in a radial fashion. This is what forms a isolated single point ground. All this effort and expense is to keep any lightning or outside fault current from flowing through the equipment causing potential differences. It works great providing there is no corruption of the isolation and everything is bonded to a single point less than 3-feet between any two points.

Probable more than some of you want to know, but thought I would share for those who are curious why we go to the trouble.

That would be for me. thanks. I'd love to see a print too, but I know that's not a practical request.

[This message has been edited by Jps1006 (edited 11-04-2004).]

I'd love to see some pictures of this system!

Dave

Hi,
Sounds kind of harsh to me..maybe you over reacted? You sound hard to work for.

Why did you not offer him a chance to correct the mistake at his expense?

-regards

Mustang

Why did he run the empty PVC to the bottom of the disconnect if he buried the wire in the gravel? Sounds like he was being a bit deceptive, no?

-Hal

Mustangelectric, I would have let him corrected his mistake if he bit the bullet and said something like I screwed up or overlooked it. But here are the facts:
1. He installed the PVC for the GEC but did not run it. Indicates to me deception on his part.
2. He installed all the ground work, rods/radials, etc so he knew it was there, clearly shown on prints with PVC, again indicating deception.
3. Rolled the GEC up and buried it after I inspected the site before everything was covered over.
4. Willingly, knowingly violated code by his own confession
5. Implied that other electrical engineers and I didn’t know jack about electrical grounding.

Just too many strikes to overlook. Perhaps I am hard to work for, at least the first time around until I am confident, then I pretty much let my contractors have free run at things. Like I said his workmanship otherwise was excellent. If he had said I screwed up, have it fixed ASAP, he would have had all my work in his area.

Hi,
You wrote...

"I went to the first site and was impressed with the work, very strict attention to workmanship."

"Went to the forth site where EC was working to confront him. He stated he did that at all cell sites for added lightning protection and so he could work the system bare handed at a later time if need be.

Fired him on the spot, reported him to AR State licensing board, and to the engineers at the cell phone company that recommended him to me."

I am not really taking anyones side here but just reviewing the original post it sounds to me like you were gunning for this fellow.

It appears that you and he had a disagreement based on the plans. If you had a contract how do you fire someone without legal ramifications? Myself i would have just sent this out to my attorney.

If I have the same set of plans that everyone else has then I do not build it the way it is shown then I need an explanation as to why it is not like the plans. The Architect or engineer or project manager may come and question me as to why I am not building to plan but usually there is a meeting of the minds..if I am wrong and someone points that out then I would gladly correct any problems. I bet this fellow would have done the same thing.

I do not think you had any right to file all these complaints with the Arkansas Dept of labor...I know them down there and I doubt that this was anything they would act on.

It sounds to me like you flew off the handle and went for blood.

Maybe try and take two and think it through next time..

I did not see any comments you made that would warrant all the complaints you filed.

Atthe most this warranted a meeting or a little chat with the PM and the EC.

You started out praising the guys work.

I always prefer negotiations prior to legal action.

Just my two cents.

-regards

Mustang

Mustang, seeing how Dereck is the engineer of record, and considering this guys obvious deception, (apparent by the pains he took in hiding what he did) I don't think his attorney would recommend he try to go anywhere with this.

Well on second thought, the attorney would make money no matter what happened, so I'm probably wrong here.


Roger

There's also the possibility that the designer is questioned about his design because of the damage to this equiptment, when, in fact, the equiptment is being damaged because the design isn't followed.

Dave