ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Work Performed by Unlicensed Electricians

For my company I follow our state law. It requires an on the job direct supervisor for up to a max of 3 apprentices. A licensed journeynam or master in the same work area and able to see what the apprentices are doing is how I and most of the inspectors enforce this.
Of course as an apprentice gains experience and shows greater abilities, the less close supervision is needed.
I am a firm believer in training.
It is part of our job as journeymen and master electricians.

Drilling holes in wooden studs or punching metal studs. I would think that this is a job that could also be done by a journeyman or an apprentice plumber. Nailing or screwing boxes to a stud might be able to be done by a journeyman or an apprentice carpenter. Some of these jobs don't require a knowledge of electricity, but they all require a skill. This skill might be included in other trades but all the skills in the list are included in the electrical trade. These skill requiring jobs have to be done by competant or supervised individuals (journeyman electricians or apprentices). I have observed every single last one on these jobs messed up at some point in my career, because the job was being done by someone who was not properly trained.

No workers comp. insurance or proper liabilty insurance to perform electrical work !!!!!

Trumpy-

I think Joe was referring to nailing the expandable supports for said can lights to joists... An if you're using IC rated cans, even the outer shell touchiong shouldn't pose a problem...

http://www.cooperlighting.com/searc...;app=Recessed+Downlight&lightsource=

[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 03-07-2004).]

Thank-you Joe for posting this discussion topic for me.

Thanks to all of you out there who are participating in this discussion.

My concerns are as follows. As licensed electricians we are required to have ongoing NEC related training in order to retain our license. This tends to keep us focused on the safety aspects involved for the installation of wiring for heat power and light. The practical safeguarding of persons and property is always to be our main focus when installing electrical systems. There is an accountability factor for those of us that are licensed that isn't present with the unlicensed installers.(The ongoing required NEC related training.)

Licensure can only be acheived through the required amount of industry related experience and/or training and testing.

Other than the electrical inspector (which might be hit and miss)what accountability can we depend on for the unlicensed installer?

The liability to the master electrician that is hiring laborers to do much of this work should be a factor to consider.

Most of the items on this list are addressed in the NEC and have safety considerations that need to be adhered to during the installation. Are we to depend on an inspector or a busy master electrician to directly supervise and catch any problems with the installation that the untrained laborer may have missed?

My opinion is that we need licensed electricians or State approved apprentices under direct supervision of licensed electricians performing the wiring methods covered by the NEC.

The safety of the public and the protection of persons and property should be our main focus. In my opinion we better achieve this through the accountability process of licensure and ongoing training.

I look forward to more dialoge on this topic

[This message has been edited by AU miner (edited 03-07-2004).]

Welcome AU miner.

I only have a couple of things I can add to your post.

It sounds to me like you are from the New England Area as what you describe is what we in this area are required to do.

The fact is in many areas of the country there is no licensing or less stringent licensing then around my area (MA).

None of this is directly an NEC issue, licensing is the domain of the states and or local governments.

I am happy to work in states with mandated licensing and more recently registered apprentices.

That said it certainly can get cloudy even here with what should and should not be done by non electricians and apprentices.

Can I hire a labor to drill all the holes to put my wires through.

No? well I hire outside contractors all the time to core cement decks for me to run pipes through.

After the laborer drills all the holes to pull the wires through why can't they pull the cables from point to point and then I have apprentices cut them into boxes.

I get to jobs quite often that the site contractor has run the underground electrical pipes on the site.

Is that right?

My only point here is there is not a black and white answer to what must be done by whom.

And this is in an area that has licensing enforcement.

Bob

AUMiner (& Iwire, too)

Your lic standards seem equal to NJ, and some of your wording seems very familiar. We have the continuing ed requirements also (34 hrs now)

As to the main topic, as Bob (Iwire) said, it's a gray area here also. We have site contractors doinf trench and PIPE work, permitted and inspected most times, unless iy's a 'utility' job. As to the drilling, pulling, and other 'entry level' jobs, the apprentices usually get that work. "You need hands on to get experience". Heck, when the hole-hog catches the nail I warned you about, that is an experience many don't forget.

John

What are the exact requirements for the additional 24 hrs. Wonder why we have more hours needed then any other NJ license.
It appears as a money making scam, rather then real targeted education, such as adding a few additional quality hours. Every vendor is offering a sales pitch for CEU, and every for profit instruction business is active in promotion of more hours. We don't need 34 hours we need an investigation. Many of our contractors are afraid to speak up for fear of being put down, to go from 10 to 34, I would sure like to hear the logic of this, other then greed.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 03-08-2004).]

I'll jump in here, I might get slammed, but I'm just telling it like it is. In my area, the only required license is for the owner of the company. I can then hire hundreds of helpers to do the work, none of whom are required to have any training. Of coarse I'm responsible for their work. This does concern me. Each of my trucks has a lead man that I trust and who's work I know and trust and each truck has a helper that is in training. I wish I could look at all the work that is being done, but I can't. I do get to 90% of the job sites and spot check, but some jobs I never even see. I recognize this as a potential problem and I am trying to come up with a solution. I'm joining the IEC for the training programs that they offer for the employees. I did recently hire an assistant to do much of my office work so I can be more on the job sites more.

Also in my state we are only required to have 4 hours of continuing ed per year and it's a joke, go pay your fee, eat the snacks or buffet, listen to a speaker and hopefully leave after 2 hours with your certificate for 4 hours.

Electric Eagle,
Joe brought up a good topic, and what you described is the real world of contracting, you realize that everyone needs more training
and are trying to do something about it, In our state we had 10 hours of code review, of which we do every day of the week all year long. These 10 hours may be good for someone that has not been working in the business or just entering the business. For those of us that are active, 10 hours of instruction by an electrical inspector, on topics that effect safety, and inspection concerns, that will improve installations this would be a great improvement to the 10 hour requirement.
Take the extra trainning time and give more attention to those entering the field.

[This message has been edited by LK (edited 03-08-2004).]