ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Live Power

Most of the time i don't like to work on anything hot,But sometimes i have to and YES it has to be live. Why? trouble shooting is one reason alot of the time you need the power on to find the problem. Other times you need to work things live because of plant work, like putting disconnects on busways, this is nasty work in a plant that has been working for 60 yrs with 3inches of powder metal on the busways. Somebody has to do it. big guy

Big Guy,
It is understood, that some things like trouble shooting requires the equipment to be operating. Bus Duct systems can, and often do have failures, It is best to follow the manufactures instructions with Bus Duct,if they say it is safe to connect hot , then it was made for that purpose, The ones that I worked with, warned not to plug into a hot buss.

LK,
No the accident I mentioned occurred here in Southern CA about 3 yrs ago.

I've found many different statistics (none quite the same) regarding construction electrocutions.
Live work on 277V lighting does seem to account for a large number of accidents.

I posted some of the following in another forum.

I would really like to know how to figure out the real risks we are exposing ourselves to.

Here is what I am talking about.

I would like to know the real numbers of people working in our trade and the real number of accidents and fatalities caused by electricity to these and only these people.

Exclude all other accidents caused by faulty appliances and untrained persons etc.

With that we could find out a number, 1 death per 1000, per 10,000, per 100,000.

Now I could compare that to my risk riding in my car or the risk to a convenience store cashier (supposedly one of the most dangerous jobs)

I am in no way saying it can not happen to me, but most things safety related should have cost benefit analysis.

Look at the controversy with AFCIs

As Don would say we would be safer if we all drove tanks (I think he means unarmed ones ) but would the cost be worth it.

Yes anything can be shut off, but the conditions we meet in the field, mislabeled panels etc can make it very difficult.

Here is a great example, I was working on a fire alarm system and found this.



What do I do here? Many unmarked 480/277 and 208/120 circuits mixed with the fire alarm conductors.

How would we handle this, tell the building owners you must shut off the main to work on the fire alarm system?

Lets live in the real world, you would quickly run out of customers as there is always other ECs that will work on this.

I also feel the application of common sense is lacking in the OSHA rules, should you try to bolt "fingers" on a 1000 amp bus bar to add a 400 amp OCPD live hell no.

Should I be able to open a panel and take some amp or volt readings?

I always will.

I have a hard time with blindly following the OSHA rules if I do not know all the facts.

Yes I know some people who have been injured / burned by electricity most where doing something extraordinarily stupid.


Scott you are no more impervious to electricity then anyone else.

Sorry for the rant but it is a real world out there and I have not seen anyone that complies with these rules 100%.

Bob (Trying to stay alive and get the job done)



[This message has been edited by iwire (edited 02-15-2004).]

Bob, I claim no immunity to electricity.
I do, though, see a world of difference between putting a clamp around ammeter around a conductor versus installing switches, plugs, and making connections while live. Hope that doesn't make me a big hypocrit.
(See the original Q on this thread)

The data you're asking about is exactly the kind I'm trying to find (without much success sofar).
I think you remember this same subject coming up on another web forum. There were mostly "no big deal" posts with the exception of yours, telling them to shut it off.
I'm glad we've a more conscientious group here.

I used to work more stuff live than I do now. It is mainly because of the type of discussions here that has made me second guess the wisdom in risking damage to tools and equipment, injury, and death. Also, a couple of well placed spatterings of moltent steel (on cheek, just below my unprotected bare eyeball) although noneventful, really made me think, although death is less likely when taking these risks, permanent maiming is more likely.

I've never done anything over 110 live. Well, I shouldn't say never, but those installs I don't think I'd ever do again. I even had a T-12 lamp blow up in my face changing a bulb live. Now I don't do that anymore either.

I'll confess, the little residential stuff, changing swtich or outlet etc. I'll still do live with certain precations, but nothing commericial. I think you're better off and more professional to have everyone log off and take five rather than try to be a hero and accidently kill what could cumaltivly add up to hours worth of work that gets wiped out because it wasn't saved.

As far as changing it hot because if I don't, the next guy will, let him. As I've gotten more experienced and more confident, I've realized there are different levels of profesionalism and expertise. The better you are, the less swayed you need to be by what the other guy is doing. You only need to explain why YOU do (and don't) do what you do. The grocery store manager that thinks he's got the store's best interest in mind by requiring you to do it hot, what would his bosses think, or their insurance provider, or their saftey department?

I think if more of the quality guys put their foot down, then the only guys left that will do it live would be the yahoo's and they will eventually proove themselves not worth doing business with (theoretically).

All in all, it's up to you to decide what is worth risk, and what type of people you want to work for. There is always a way to figure to work something dead. I think it shows very poorly of a person that puts prouctivity and convinence above the saftey of their contractors.

I've found that when I turn down working for those types, it frees me up to find better customers, and then I try to appreciate and hold on to the good ones I have.

Besides troubleshooting, the only work I do hot is the cut-off and tie-in of an upgraded service entrance. And this gets the full PPE and insulated tools dragged out. The lineman's gloves and face shield make a certain impression on the customer, as well...

JPS
Very well written!!!
Experience does not only make us better at what we do, it instills the confidence that we 'exude'. Some customers can feel it and will trust us to do the right thing even if it means turning the power off.
As an example, we had a load problem at an office building that probably could still be up and running with the problem, but we told the owners that it had the potential to create even more of a problem. They had another contractor say the problem could be fixed without shutting the building down. Long story short, we shut the whole building down for 4 days and 625 employees had a 4 day vacation while we fixed the problem.

I myself have walked away from jobs, because I have seen first hand some terrible accidents and do not want to be part of it. Funny I am still working/making money without those jobs.

I know some people work for a corporate company that has a 'bottom line' and you want to keep your job, but for me I cannot justify working live in a box like the one in your post. There is absolutely no reason! If someone is willing to do such poor work as what I can see in the box Bob posted, how do I know there is not a skinned wire there that could end my career or life? It takes more courage to say no than to say okay. It has been mentioned "real world" situations, I say that if the percentage killed in our business is 1 in 100,000, that would be one too many.
I agree accidents happen, but it does not have to be at the cost of the 'bottom line'!!
Remember it is only a job.

Pierre

Pierre do you drive a vehicle to the job?

40,000 of us Americans die every year in autos and the number of injury's greatly exceeds that. Think about that number for a few minutes next time you are in the car, about 109 deaths a day.

I do understand there are more folks in cars than working with wiring.

All I am saying is life is full of risk and I would like to know what the risks are in relation to qualified people doing electric work.

Yes I have learned a lot and I am not as caviler about live work as I once was, I also except the fact that working around electricity carries certain risks, like someone leaving a skinned wire.

This is no different than a emergency room worker assumes some risk from blood borne pathogens even with the safety procedures.

Are you going to tell me you always comply with all the requirements?

Your men always shut down panels when adding circuits?

Like I said if things can be shut down I do so, the box above I will not be able to shut down, I will put on my gloves and face mask and do what I have to do, I could say no and the company would not retaliate.

Bob

I, for the most part, work strickly on gasoline equipment. I work in some locations that have 6 to 8 dispnsers, that pump 8 to 10 thousands gallons a day. Pretty busy, for the most part someone is pumping all the time. The panels are rarely marked, almost never marked correctly. Sometimes there is only one disconnect for several dispensers. I wouldn't have any business if I shut the place down to work. Simple as that. Their are rules and their are facts of life.

On another sad note






Ricky Thompson of Caribou gets his dressings changed on his burn wounds daily at Cary Medical Center in Caribou by Rhonda Bossie, R.N., who has special training in wound care.
Last updated: Saturday, February 14, 2004
Trial by Fire
Severely injured Caribou man trying to rebuild his life

Rick Thompson's scarred face cringed in pain and fear as he recounted details of the day when a fireball of 10,000 degrees Fahrenheit burned the clothes off his body and the skin off his muscles.


Walking to the table in his mother's small, second-floor apartment in Caribou, Thompson acknowledged a visitor and raised his arm slowly for a handshake, but asked that the squeeze of his hand be gentle.


The skin on his arms, hands, neck and face are pink, the color of new, tender flesh. His hands, covered with new skin, ache when he performs simple tasks. Getting into a car and driving is a huge undertaking as the chill of northern Maineýs weather exacerbates the pain.


Thompson, 48, faces months of daily, painful occupational and physical therapy and dressing changes at Cary Medical Center for injuries he suffered more than a year ago in an industrial accident at the Boralex Fort Fairfield Inc. electrical plant.


He learned recently that he might need more surgery soon to repair tendon damage in one hand. Thompson is getting stronger as each week goes by, he said, but his speech remains slow, the words easing out at their own pace.


Thompson was hospitalized for nearly 10 months for injuries that included second- and third-degree burns over more than 50 percent of his body after he was set on fire when a circuit breaker shorted out and blew at the Fort Fairfield biomass electrical plant Oct. 22, 2002.


When an 800-amp breaker went from 480 volts of electricity to about 32,000 volts, the explosion ignited his clothing and skin, according to a government report.


Thompson first was taken to The Aroostook Medical Center and then was quickly flown to Maine Medical Center in Portland. Three days later, he was at Boston's Brigham and Women's Hospital burn unit, considered one of the best in the world.


Kept in a medically induced coma for five weeks, the County man was still on a respirator when he woke up. He had nine skin-graft operations in Boston, and three more in Portland.


"I feel lucky to have survived the accident," Thompson said recently in the apartment he shares with his mother, Beatrice Maynard, in Caribou. "I came so close to death.