ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area How does your Local Gov't handle this matter?

Gee, we've seen this topic before. But don't worry - I'm sure that with all those home improvement / DIY shows on cable, we'll all be seeing completely Code compliant and Safe installs on all our service calls from now on! [donning asbestos underwear]

When I first started wiring, I did it as a "handyman". I "assisted" the homeowner in performing the wiring themselves.... Yeah, that's right.

The major difference is that I followed the code back then (just like now). The City inspector knew I was wiring my buddy's basement, and when I asked hom about it, he told me that he was less worried about my work than some of the "old time" electricians who were still following Code from the 50's. (Of course, they also knew I was going to take the license exam in the future, and didn't want to f up too badly)

People used to ask "why do you have to do it that way?", or "Gee, isn't that going to be expensive?" - I told them:

a) they were paying me a fraction of what they'd be paying a licensed electrician;
b) as a pirate, I might get tagged for not having a license - the last thing I want from a criminal or civil viewpoint is not doing the job to code on top of pirating;
c) doing it right the first time meant they wouldn't have to call me (or somebody else) back in the future, OR call the Fire Department when the loose lamp cord in their wall finally failed.

So, I guess that answer is that in our town the AHJ bases his response on the quality of work being performed.


Of course, that requires inspections....

which are based on the permit process...

which, of course, everyone is always compliant with...


[This message has been edited by DougW (edited 01-04-2004).]

fine by me DougW, and hey, if s/he's not present we can just addendum the bill as having 12 recessed & 14 receptacles on a furnace cicuit right?

heck, i work side by side the DIY'er all the time here...

there's a difference bettween 'pirating' and surviving a market basically advocated through the silent authorities that supposively work for the public's best interests isn't there?

of course, i'd LOVE for the NFPA to prove me wrong here and issue a Home Depot 101 manual in the NFPA catalog, maybe then it wouldn't grace my woodstove every month....

LK,
I'm not willing to go down w/o a fight here as my position is as hard earned as yours or anyone else's in this trade... do you recall the (i think it Graybar?) posters portraying electricity as 'not a hobby' ?

That isn't propaganda is it? So if these orginizations are all so fired up over safety, while the market is milking the DIY contingent for all it's worth, why don't they start up that campaign again ?

No pain, No gain seems call here folks ,ya gotta crack a few eggs to make an omlet right?

put the fat cats on a diet.

shame the local grand poohbahs with your violation photo's.

rub the (not always so obvious) minset of cheap housing traded for safe housing in via incidents in your local news

~S~

My use of the term 'pirate' is based on the fact that I wasn't licensed then, but am now. It's also a recognition of the fact that I was taking a risk, (administrative though it was) operating in such a capacity.

I was surviving a job market - but I was also trying my damndest to follow all the same rules that applied to the 'legit' shops... from a personal liability, as well as public safety consideration.

I agree with you Sparky; the concept of insurance worries is minimal. It usually only comes into play after the structure is damged by fire. If the electric is determined to be the cause & origin, and it can be proved to be a non-compliant install, and then if said install method / means / equipment caused the fire. (I think it would be assumed that a non-compliant install was non-permited, but I think the greater concern of the insurance carrier would by the overall quality of the work, not the paper involved)

Such a determination would most likely be based on opinions generated by expert witnesses and investigators for the insurance company, not the AHJ. (see the posts about horrid installs that passed final by AHJ)

IMHO, the two types of violators we are all seeing seem to be:

a) Well-intentioned Ignorance - folks that do electrical work, without knowing the Code (at least the basic safety factors involved in it). DIY'ers and honest fixit's usually fall into this category. They try to do a neat and safe (at least not obviously unsafe) job, but aren't aware of all the factors we consider when installing. Usually these folks will acknowledge the limits of their expertise, and will call for help when over their heads - the problem is getting them to realize where that point is.

b) Cheapo, "old Pro", or FTAHJ (Forget The AHJ) - these guys are more dangerous. They short work because "doing it to Code is more expensive", "I know what to do - I've been working around houses for 10,000 years", or "I'm not going to pay the City for a damn piece of paper to work in my own house". These folks not only don't know that what they learned (from their boss who's brother - in - law's neighbor's boyfriend was a spark and taught them everything) was wrong to start with, but it's been wrong all these years. Or, they consider the Code (including changes, updates, the inspection and permit process) 'nuisances', only designed to feed the AHJ coffers.

I also include in this category the fixits who KNOW that what they're doing is wrong (Illegal, and (I'll be so bold as to include) potentially unsafe), but are willing to do it to max their profits - around here, the biggest violation is using NM - all the communities in my area are FMC / conduit, but Rome Wire (Romex's daddy) enjoys brisk sales at the Big Orange Box on weekends and evenings.

BTW, our community has ordinances against 'performing electrical installation, modification, or advertising ones self as an electrical contractor without being a licensed EC, in this City or elsewhere. We also have a municipal violations court - theoretically, cases for folks who get pinched for installs w/o license would be heard there, but I don't recall any arrests lately.

Well either I am reading this all wrong or I get the impression that some of you feel a license is just a piece of paper and insurance is a nusiance.

My question wasn't directed towards an electrician who is starting out doing jobs on the side because Frankly I think most of us start that way. I am talking about the contractors doing a kitchen and doing the electrical work, or a bathroom, or basement, etc. These guys are cheating the consumer as well as taking food off my table. If I am playing the game by the rules and shelling out thousands in insurance and payroll taxes and someone is undercutting the prices because he doesn't have to pay that overhead I have two choices. Make a stink about it or say screw the rules. I haven't gotten to the point of saying screw it yet so I am making a stink.

I have always believed that the best way to combat this problem is to have an informed public. There is no way for me to compete with someone with little or no overhead. I recently gave a price for 10 high hats in a living room on two dimmers. My price was around $1000. This was in a finished room. She got it done for $450. Now I'm sorry but if I start working for $100 a day my kids would look like starving ethiopians and we would be living in a cardboard box.

If your would-be customer was willing, you could offer a complimentary "code check", and tell her if she got a good deal (code level work) or if she got shafted (extension cord in the ceiling) and how you would have done it differently (higher quality).


This seems to be the root problem, other than the licensing and quality of work issues we've been hashing about. The impact on our wallets.

I don't think you'll find an argument here about a well-informed customer, willing to "pay for what they'll get", being preferable to one that simply shops the bottom line. Unfortunately, so many citizens believe an ad in the local paper and a shiny van make someone "qualified", especially in areas that they know nothing about.

Dishonest contractors (performing unlicensed or substandard work) probably won't take the time to explain the what, where, and why of the job they're being ask to quote on. Their concern is how much the H.O. is willing to pay, and how much profit they can make.

If you're like me, you've probably lost the initial sale of potential jobs, once the required work (and subsequent $$) was explained. And hopefully you've also had people do some research, and call you back to hire you - once they knew what questions to ask of the other EC's (or would be's) that followed you.

And as far as 'screw the rules' - there's a difference between following a municipality's rules to the letter (requiring a $50 permit for changing a regular duplex to a GFCI, for example), and covering your butt (contractor's insurance). I think of the insurance I have being less for my customers, and more for my wife and kids.

Pforte....sounds to me like you are dealing with alot of window shoppers. I find anyone who baulks at a fair price wasn't going to be a very good customer anyway. I used to try to work with them to stay busy but it usually was nothing but a headache. I am sure this is a soft spot with alot of people here.

This is an issue we have to deal with a lot here in Texas. There are no state license requirements (even though the state license bill was signed by the governor last June) so if you are working outside of a permitting jurisdiction you are under no ones scrutiny but your own.
My favorite response to home owners who want to cut corners because "an inspector will never see it" is that if I do sub-standard or non code-compliant work on their home and they have a fire, their insurance companies investigator could cancel them and not pay the claim if their investigation reveals shoddy work. Basically I tell them that in order to cover my on fanny it's the code way or no way for me. Most listen to reason, a few have gone with their carpenter who doubles as an electrician. (really)
I've had the same problem with contractors I have worked for around here. One couldn't believe that a switch leg on a 20 amp breaker was supposed to be wired with #12 wire. His answer to me was "it's only a 15 amp switch so we can use 14." No wonder he failed the SBCCI Masters test three times. It scares me to look into the attics around here, an abundance of #16 lamp cord tying receptacle circuits together, usually without the benefit of a box OR a wire nut.
Note: The Texas license law did not go into effect Sept. 1, 2003 as billed because the legislature, in their infinite wisdom, failed to fund the committee. Go figure.