ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Vacuums and Wire Pulls

Well, let's see ....

First site I found offers the CO2 system for $1725.50. Another site offers the Greenlee vacuum system for $1435.39.

Both systems seem rather large- one comes on a hand truck, while the other looks to have at least a 12-gallon tank. You're not going to carry either up a ladder, or even fit into your JoBox. I really look forward to dragging either through the 100-yards of mud that seems to surround every jobsite.

I'm sorry, but $1500 is a heck of a lot for a vacuum that isn't even HEPA certified! Just what can this golden calf do that can't be done with a $21 vacuum cover on an old mud bucket?

I've never seen either in the kit of any contractor, even the Union guys doing only heavy industrial work. I can't imaging putting out that sort of investment when your typical "big" pull might be 170-ft. of 3/4" pipe.

Likewise, the plant compressed air solution is nice- IF the place is built and operating. I haven't worked on such a site for ages. I'm usually pulling wire well before the site is even closed in, secure, and conditioned. After all .... which comes first, the air conditioning or the wires?

Someone mentioned underground pulls. Oddly enough, those seem to have the most trouble. Lines fill with water and dirt. Joints are broken, kinked, or crushed by the other trades as the concrete is poured.

This site has thousands of members and we've done millions of pulls. I'd expect a little more response

Electure:

Yes, I was talking the CO2. I never came across one, or saw anyone with one.

Thanks for that.

Reno:

Yes, I mentioned most of the jobs I did were underground. Services, site lighting, sports lighting, etc.

It was unusual to have any issues with the UG PVC, as most jobs were with the same 'other guys'; we all had a work ethic and respect for the job as a whole.

Yes, a vac system was not cheap, I think it was $1k or less back in the day. The Craftsman was about $125 and it did a lot of jobs.

Equipment, like a power bender, puller kit, hydraulic punch kits, etc. IMHO were necessary investments. It also saved the hassle of rental equipment, as rental guys were few.

Heck, now some of the newer guys have battery tools that cost around what you quoted for the vac kit.

Reno:

There was no such thing as a $21 shopvac in the '70s and we were working hundreds of feet away from the nearest power source with no truck access.

You have never seen any contractor that owned such equipment, yet every one of the contractors I've worked for had professional grade tools like that.
They just can't afford the liability involved with sending out Mickey Mouse homemade or Harbor Freight quality setup, besides, they just won't last.


The "typical big pull" isn't 170' of 3/4" conduit, which could just as easily be accomplished with a fishtape.

I was successful in blowing the dirt and water out of a 200' run of 1.25 RNC using a gadget I originally made for an air cannon. I brazed a 3/4" NPT nipple into a freon jug and screwed a ball valve on it. For the cannon, it was capable of sending an orange out of sight but when I turned this over to blowing out the RNC it worked great. I put about 100 PSI of air in it, hooked it to the RNC and let it fly. Dirt, water and mist went about 50' but the pipe was cleaned out. It worked so well I filled the pipe up with fresh water and "shot" it again. just to get the last of the sand out.
Then I blew some soap in there and the wires just sailed through.

I just have to love some of the skepticism I see expressed ... it's almost like someone is thinking "This Reno guy really hasn't a clue about REAL electrical work."

I can only speak to my experience and observations. For all I know, the folks in Amish country use trained ferrets

It's easy to sneer... 3/4? 170-ft? Golly, one time we did something a lot longer and a lot fatter. Sure you did - and for every such pull, you did hundreds of nice, short runs.

Fish tape? Yea, right. A fish has it's uses; I have several. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't - and most fish tapes are less than 100 ft. long (especially after some years of use). Especially on underground runs, there can be a real problem with the tape hitting a hard stop at the far-away last 90. Hence, the vacuum.

Liability? Huh? Please elaborate, with complete case citation, where it was successfully argued that someone committed a 'wrong' because they used a $25 Wal-Mart vac and taped a water bottle to the hose as a reducer to the pipe. Gawd, everyone's a lawyer these days. I sure hope OSHA doesn't come after me for replacing my old bootlaces with bits of paracord.

Freon? Now the truth comes out, we know WHO destroyed the ozone layer

In happier news, when I told the boss "we" were ready to pull today, he replied "We? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?" I was able to honestly say "why, yes I do!"

Also, as of today, my $21 out-performs the company 'big' shop-vac for this task. I believe this is largely because the impeller on my new vac has not been abraded by dust passing over it- years back I did some propeller testing, and it's amazing how even an invisibly small amount of wear to the blade edge totally killed the performance.

I note that Greenlee sells a much smaller vac, for "only" several hundreds of dollars. Looking to their accessories, I see one they sell for about $30, that I can readily assemble from an $8 set of "car detailing" accessories and a minor amount of tape. Their accessory for blowing line looks nice, but with a price in the three figures, it's no surprise I've never even seen it at the parts house.

IMO, the hard part is connecting the vac hose to the conduit, especially when there are access issues. On this current job, we've had some good results with tiny 1-gallon, 1-hp vacs .... making me again wonder why I haven't seen such an electrician-focused set-up offered for something like $75.

We can't let "best" become the enemy of "good enough." I still wonder at the critics of my tiny bandsaw, because it can't cut 2" pipe, etc. Milwaukee is crying all the way to the bank over that 'inadequate' product!

You said a "typical large pull" not a typical pull.


As to liability issue. I think you're going a bit overboard, and I can think of no case exactly like that ... but you already knew that.
You mad, bro?

I did though, see another contractor's employee using a homemade wire pulling contraption with a drill motor hooked up to a pulley system. He got his finger in between a belt and a pulley and cut his finger off.
The Contractor's Workman's Comp Insurance went up drastically.

Then there's always the thing about the tool's reliability, and the resultant labor costs of downtime when a cheap tool breaks and the job comes to a screeching halt.

Reno:

Could the difference of opinions in this thread be that you are a 'one man' shop, and for the 25 years I was active I had employees??

Not being critical, but my belief was investing in professional equipment. As Electure said, labor costs for downtime, or 'make this work', and keeping accidents & injuries low (Workers Comp Rates) offset the cost of the equipment.

There's no denying that a small shop has fewer opportunities to spread the cost of equipment over several jobs. Simply put, if you can guarantee a tool is used every day, it's real easy to justify the expense.

I'm currently working for a rather substantial firm, one with multiple crews spread across many states. The crew I'm currently on has 7-10 electricians; the next job will likely have three times as many. Work can be described fairly as commercial, institutional, or light industrial.

Our company vacuum is a well-worn Shop-Vac, probably retailing for less than $100. This vacuum has been easily out-performed by a similar-sized (but well kept) Shop Vac, a tiny 1-gal. Shop-Vac, and my new (and tiny) $21 bucket vacuum.

Previously, I was "in the area" as various "major" contractors did 'shut-down' work at a steel mill. These guys had threaders and benders, but 500's were still pulled using multiples of men and various jury-rigged equipment (cranes, fork lifts, etc.) Thousand-dollar vacuums? Not a chance.

It's easy to speak platitudes about improper equipment ... but, good heavens, we're talking about VACUUMS. With the vast majority of (even name-brand) vacuums going for less than $150, I have to ask: what's so special about a product that is priced at 15x the price? I would expect those who have such expensive equipment to be able to explain exactly why it's a better choice.

Cost aside, I see the Greenlee ad makes reference to 4" pipe and 2000-ft. runs. They also claim this wheeled behemoth is "hand carried." Good luck with that! More to my point, that's a bit more than what's needed by most pulls ... why use the semi-truck when the VW beetle will do the job?

Ever see the blowers used to inflate 'bounce houses?' Not much for pressure, but there's a lot of volume. I have often wondered if that's what would make a good tool to blow a mouse through the pipe.

Likewise, I note a variety of rather pricey bits Greenlee offers for the hose end. I'm sure others have found other solutions to this same issue. This thread is their chance to share their solutions with the rest of us.

Speaking of ferrets and mice, in my younger days I trained a mouse to run through conduit. At first, it was short pieces of pipe with peanut butter as a reward and he (she? I didn't check) got pretty good. On the first production try with a 2" pipe, I ran the mouse in the wrong direction. The run ended with a 5 foot drop into a live panel. After that, we could still use the mouse but we needed a vacuum.