ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Alternative Energy New Jersey Warehouse Fire 9-1-13 Caused by PV?

IMHO, the structure under the panels (visable) seems to have been fully active, as flames were licking over the gutter. Venting there would create a more hazardous situation.

As to 'covering' the panels, yes that will either kill or reduce the output dramatically, but....who carries enough tarps?? We (myself & local FD) had that conversation. Another 'idae' that was thrown around was using foam, but I heard of no more comments about that.

It would be interesting if Trumpy would jump in here with his opinion, as he is/was in the fire service.

Here is a link to a 150 page study done by UL on Firefighter Safety and Photovoltaic Installations Research Project...

http://www.ul.com/global/documents/.../fireservice/PV-FF_SafetyFinalReport.pdf

I have not review it in awhile but they say foam will not help much I believe...

Hi John,
Personally, I have to agree with the Fire Chief in this situation, I think he made the right call there.
Not in any way because of any perceived electrical hazard, but one of the golden rules of firefighting is to never get yourself or others into a position that can't be escaped from.

Also, with the amount of weight already on the roof (with the PV panels) and the likelihood of collapse caused by heat from the fire below compromising the roof structure, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't put my fellow FF's in that situation either, it's a dangerous enough occupation as it is, without making it worse with bad decisions.

Having been involved with fire investigation in the past, I can say that any verdict as to the cause can take ages, some fires are easy to work out what started them, others can take a LOT of pain-staking work (I've had a pair of tweezers in my hands on the odd job), but that is what you have to do, instead of putting it in the "too hard" basket".

This is why it REALLY annoys me when I read somewhere that some "fire investigator" deems a fire to be started by electricity alone, "Ohhh, it's electrical!" they say, bollocks, 9 times out of 10, this couldn't be further from the truth, electricity itself, can't start a fire, there has to be something like negligence, criminal intent or plain stupidity to cause that electricity to start that fire.

John,

I heard about that fire and it did make the news up north here, but not much in the way of follow up news. Thanks for keeping us posted here. I have a very large PV system about to start in 1 of my towns. They are looking to cover a large roof with about 1,000-2,000 panels for 2-3 systems. Each system with produce 400 amps at 480 volts 3 phase. I can't wait to see this one.

Before panels go on the roof, it must be verified and in most cases reenforced to carry the load, safely. Especially in snowy areas. It should have gone for a building review prior to permitting and construction.

A bigger issue is whether the building faces high wind conditions.

PV arrays become vast sails that can produce lift.

Instead of plunging down it may take of like Dorothy! (Wizard of Oz)

Personally, I think that PV only makes sense if done down low -- never on roof tops. Eventually the casualties will mount to such a point that today's folly will be stopped.

Between fire hazards, roof falls, and sailing effects... it's the wrong place to use. It's inspired by Sci Fi writing, by those ignorant of engineering issues.

As I've posted before, most of the money for PV power is wasted on hazardous labor -- and difficult NON-UNIFORM mounting situations. There are so many different roofs to anchor to, it's tricky to get them all correct.

In this mania, there are sure to be no end of faulty installations which will haunt America for years. In the fullness of time, PV arrays will be seen as a negative during home sales: roof leaks!

The nation would've been much better off if vast arrays were merely parked in New Mexico. There are high deserts there with no one on them -- and not much wildlife, either.

They could've been, should've been, plopped down in one vast complex -- sort of a TVA or BPA for our times.

In the long run, in the larger picture, the true market for PV power is electrolysis. By generating hydrogen gas this way all of the other issues drop away.

It is obvious, though, that ultra-cheap methane makes PV sourced hydrogen gas uneconomic.

So the market for PV energy is going to be saturated quicker than you might think.

I'm in California. The only reason for PV economics is vicious government policy -- that is taxation at the power meter. We're forced to pay $0.45/ kWHr! If your home is big enough -- and the climate is warm -- your power bills go into orbit.

This billing rate has absolutely no relation to the actual cost of power to the utilities. It's a sumptuary tax forced down from above by politicians.

It's obviously ruined the upgrade after market hereabouts. Everyone is tossing out their hot tubs -- and all the rest.

Now that is a place where solar power really makes a difference. You just use low tech pool style water heating collectors and you can boil that sucker if you aren't careful.
If you glaze them or just cover the collector with Visqueen, you can increase cold day performance by at least 50%.

Tesla,

You talk about sailing away as Dorthy from the Wizard of OZ, well we were working on a large neon sign once upon a time ago, with 3 people. I was on the top part of the sign, my foreman was in the middle and the apprentice was on the bottom. We started to remove the large piece of plexiglass cover, we were on a very busy and windy highway, I kept asking all my men, "Are you OK, shall we keep going?" They both said, "OK so far." So we would pull out the cover farther and farther, when finally it was just about to loosen free. Next thing you know, you hear the apprentice yelling, "OH, Oh, I'm flying away!" The wind caught the large sign, and was trying to blow him off the ladder and sail him away. We were only about 15-20' off the ground, but we didn't want to see anyone get hurt. My foreman and I grab the sign as hard as we could to keep the apprentice from flying away. We got it and him down to the ground safely and continued to fix the sign, get it lit back up and replace the plexiglass.

In Florida you need engineering to put PV on a roof.
In my area it is the 160mph wind code

Greg...

The typical stanchion is PRIMARILY designed to resist gravity.

I'm of the opinion that very, very, few are designed to combat sail effect.

Further, as you know from Florida's 'wind issue' that the WHOLE dang roof may do a 'Dorothy' if not tied down.

These are issues that are very hard to deal with -- after the dang house is old work.

I can see massive lawsuits, just around the corner, that will wipe out 'solar electric' players. Kind of like the move against aluminum siding. -- See "Tin Men" -- funny as all get out, BTW.