ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Comments for debate....

Reno,

I'm sorry if you took my post about not getting permits wrong. I don't care if they rip out the wallboard, or wires, etc. Technically you don't need a permit for that. Technically you do need a permit to put all that stuff back in the wall. Also, I meant that some people in town never even made an attempt to get a permit. If I went down a neighbor hood that had 6-8 feet of water in it, and there are 10 houses on the block, and only 2 permits for that street, doesn't that seem a bit odd, that the other 8 houses, didn't do any work at all?

Speaking of wildfires ...

A few years back, Lake Tahoe has a fire that simply erased a street or two from the map. Every home completely consumed, save one - which sat untouched, amidst a sea of charcoal.

That one house .... it's owner was currently facing charges for illegally removing the accumulated pine needles and brush from the government-encouraged 30-ft 'clear space' around his home.

That is, the Forest Service and Fire Marshal 'encouraged' homeowners to maintain a defensible space around their homes. The Tahoe Regional Planning Authority, OTOH, forbade any activity that altered the natural state of the land. Despite quick denials, it was proven that TRPA had, indeed, started CRIMINAL proceedings against this homeowner.

TRPA went into 'damage control mode,' where they asserted that their policies were misunderstood, all the man needed do was apply for a permit, etc., - despite TRPA's own website, which told a different tale indeed. The TRPA's own site made clear that you were to NEVER disturb the ground cover, even to the extent of collecting pine needles, for fear of rainwater runoff carrying debris into the lake - and that there was no 'permit' available, save those pursuant to a full-blown environmental assay, required for new construction.

Amazingly enough, charges against the sole surviving homeowner were quietly dropped. This time - there's no reason they won't cite him again in a few years, when the trees are replanted.

Small wonder homeowners look upon the "authorities" as the enemy.

I don't think they will go after that homeowner or any other in the future.

Just for the heck of it, I looked at the Tahoe Regional Planning Authority website and found instructions on how to create a defensible fire control space around your property including removing pine needles.

I guess that if enough pressure is put on government regulatory agencies they can change to work with the people that pay their wages.

Harold said:

"If I went down a neighbor hood that had 6-8 feet of water in it, and there are 10 houses on the block, and only 2 permits for that street, doesn't that seem a bit odd, that the other 8 houses, didn't do any work at all?"

The things I discover:

100' crane boom, RTU on hook, HVAC guys ask "how did you notice us"??

Retail windows covered in paper or whitewash, dumpster full of debris.??

Neighbor complaints. Some ligit, some crank calls.

PU truck overloaded with sheetrock in front driveway of house.??

Van parked where there is no parking, back doors open, electrical tools/materials laying on grass??

Call for inspection of an alarm system, or replaced HVAC, and be finishing a basement!! Stupid award.

They are certainly more easy going here. I had a structural inspector say "I don't want to know what you are doing over there" when he was looking at my addition.
It was innocent (just a pile of materials I had collected from my wife's dumpsters) but I liked the attitude

We're dancing around some much larger issues, issues that go to the nature of the society we want.

Simply put: Do you want to live in a world that celebrates the individual, protects his freedom, rewards initiative, and presumes innocence?

Or,

Do you want to live in a world where 'community' or the 'common good' is valued above all else, where everyone else has a veto in your decisions, where things are allowed only after proven to be proper, and the assumption is that one must get permission first?

Code Nazis love to say it's "all about safety," yet their actions send a different message. My own town now has officials who want the city to become 'proactive' and use the trash collector to seek out revenue sources for code enforcement.

For a town whose permit and inspection activities are extremely minimal, that's quite a sea change.

Others will say 'follow the money,' but even that fails to explain many behaviors. In many cases, it's all about control, as has been well proven in Chicago. Supporters get permits, others get delayed for decades, and even long-established businesses are closed down the moment the political tide shifts. (Research "Lakeshore Gun Club" for a classic example).

The above mentioned gun club case is illustrative, as it was an instance where new "environmental protections" were instituted for the express purpose of eliminating a business whose reason for existence -firearm ownership- was deemed improper by some. Never mind the decades-long existence of the business, or their 100-year lease; a pretense was created.

I applaud your perspective here Reno, as most of us like to focus on minutiae which is comfortable vs. being objective enough to grasp a broader overview.

For example, why demand the expensive photosensitive talking battery BU combo smoke/co units that talk (i hate that) @ $75 a whack, when we could be proliferate all the slums with the $10 120v non bat ionization units?

In the broader scope, isn't a little protection for everyone better that a lot for the chosen few?

Theres two camps that follow suit, i'm sure nobody's a starnger to them , but they bear mention at this turn of the thread

There's the libertopians, who pine away for their personal freedom(s) , much to the expense of others around them, with the entire doctrine often degrading into 'meanest dog wins'

Then there's the Keynesians, who believe the government is responsible for some manner of market oversight

This is where the devil in in the details, as we well know
bureaucracy can be a double edged sword, and we are but mere fleas on it's gleaming edge....~S~

Reno:
I don't consider myself, or Harold "Code Nazis". I can't speak for Harold, so the comments herein are mine.

Yes, innocent, until proven guilty. Yes, we live in the USA, have our freedoms, and laws to abide by.

My actions are to enforce the Construction codes as adopted within NJ, and that is what I have State licences for.

How do I do my job? Swoop in like a storm trooper? No, I talk to people, remain calm, & explain the situation. Honest mistake?? No problem, just get to the office & fill out the permit forms. Do I hear 'fairy tales'? Yes. Do some people think that I was 'born yesterday', Yes. Do some lie to my face? Sure. BTW, bless the guy who decided to date stamp romex.

Could a Notice of Violation & Penalty be written? By the book, yes; but there is discresion. Fool me once, shame on me. Do it again, or ignore the issue & pay the price.

Embelishment on one of my comments to bring this thread back to life. This was about 4-5 years ago, but memorable:

The van parked was on a street in an industrial park, each bldg has large parking lots, & no one parks on the streets. I passed it once, returned 1/2 hr later going the other way, & it was still there. I parked, walked thru the open man door, showed my ID & asked where are the electricians. "On break'; I ask what are they doing, guy says 'been here over two weeks' & takes me to a new 400 amp, MCC & 12 new machines. I walk out to the lunch tables, & there they are, one who was a student of mine at Vo-Tech. I told them to call the boss! And, I gave them a free lesson...If they were parked in the lot, no one would have ever noticed!!!

That said....$500, reduced to $250 for working without a permit! First known issue got a break.

Two weeks later, same EC, same men...working at a large hi-end car dealership, again with no permits! Did he learn? Don't seem so, but this one cost him $2000.

"Code Nazis" can, I realize, describe two different mindsets. While both are often found in the same person, it's also quite possible for the ideas to live apart.

The first is the guy who thinks everything needs a rule. It's not enough to specify drywall - it has to be a certain type, with certain marking, hung in a certain way with specific fasteners with sundry approvals.

Far fetched? Hardly. A specific case arose when Mike Holmes (of TV fame) went to build in California. He went to assemble the code-specified lumber with the usual power nail guns, only to have the nails bounce off of the 'engineered' lumber. It was possible to drive screws - but the assembly had never been 'rated' with screws, so screws were out. No matter that 'everyone knows' that screws are far better fasteners than any nail of similar size.

The other type of 'code Nazi' is the troll who appears when the balance of power shifts, to where you can't operate without their blessing. Don't let appearances fool you; these sadists often present the most polished, professional face, and never set a foot wrong. They're just being 'thorough' or 'conscientious.' Yea, right. Some have personal agendas, favoring one over another. Others have nothing but contempt for their "customers." You see this expressed in the remote, inadequate parking, the long waits, the inability to contact, the false "professional" names, and the armed guards and security barriers to keep you away.

One can readily find an example of this second sort of troll at any government office administering anything resembling a 'benefit.'

Now, I want every government employee reading this to pause, and look at their place of work. Who uses the "good" parking spaces? Are the ones for the public the most expensive metered spaces in the downtown district - and the cashier forbidden to make change? Do your 'open' hours more closely resemble a bank- or a supermarket? Are more folks brought to serve the counter when there's a line? Will my application get trashed if I use the wrong color ink?

It's those 'little things' that identify who the institution REALLY serves.

Has anyone compared losses from areas that have strict inspection requirements, to areas that have no inspections or very limited ones? I would be real curious to see the outcome of any study.