ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Safety at heights?
by gfretwell - 04/23/24 03:03 PM
Old low volt E10 sockets - supplier or alternative
by gfretwell - 04/21/24 11:20 AM
Do we need grounding?
by gfretwell - 04/06/24 08:32 PM
UL 508A SPACING
by tortuga - 03/30/24 07:39 PM
Increasing demand factors in residential
by tortuga - 03/28/24 05:57 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
1 members (Scott35), 517 guests, and 18 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4
MarkD123 #208260 01/05/13 10:06 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,273
T
Member
"As for stray voltage, that would be a real hot topic around here. I have seen lots of problems with stray voltage around pools. Sometimes it was caused by pin hole leaks in the Power Co. (POCO) primary underground feeders.
We would get readings between 5-30 volts around a pool. Enough voltage so that you feel a tingle when you touch metal, the pool deck and had bare feet."


Primary (loop or star) Poco Feeders are those conductors that function on the line side of Poco transformers -- pad mount or pole mount. Hence, they operate at "Medium" voltages -- i.e. beyond 2,000 VAC.

Service Laterals to homes and their common Secondary Tap run should best be termed Secondaries.

Pocos can deliver juice at both Primary and Secondary voltages to Service customers. -- And, obviously, will only provide Medium Voltages to industrial and major commercial ratepayers.

(Las Vegas casinos famously draw only Medium Voltage/ Primary (Distribution) Circuit power. The casinos own and operate all of the utilization transformers, themselves.)

When overhead, the Primary Distribution is unshielded. Any car parked near High Voltage transmission lines will have an induced ( capacitive coupling ) voltage ranging into the hundreds of volts. The actual charge quanta will be very low. It can be tested by a high impedance meter -- like our common DMM -- with one lead stuck in the ground and one on the bodywork.

This phenomena can't happen with buried Primary conductors -- because they are Shielded with a braided neutral -- looking like a massively oversized co-axial cable wire.

Even pin hole leaks in Secondary insulation would vent so much current that the heat would open up the fault until even a Primary transformer fuse would blow. (Pocos don't fuse their secondaries -- as a rule.)

All of which is to say that you're operating under a false conception of where the mystery current is coming from.

----------------

Speaking from experience:

The impressed voltage witnessed in swimming pools and hot tubs that are not well grounded can have two sources.

Either the slightly salty pool is experiencing capacitive coupling to some nearby high voltage, high power current -- or it's experiencing the Faraday effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHD_generator

In the current age, swimming pools and hot tubs have filtration and agitation circuits built entirely of PVC. The pump impellers are typically plastic, too. It's also very, very common for the field windings to be wrapped in a PLASTIC enclosure, too. The only metals are within the field windings and stator.

Because everyone exudes salt from their skin, and such salt does not evaporate out, swimming pools turn into weak salt baths -- every last one.

Making them conductors of electricity, too.

When such a fluid is forced to pass through the unshielded electric fields of the pool pump, by that pump, both the Faraday effect and the Hall effect kick in: the first being dominant.

If the 'salt bath' is well insulated -- it is possible to lift the voltage of the bath into the tens of volts. I have tested it as high as 45 Volts with a DMM.

Once it's sweetly grounded, this voltage bleeds off.

So, the voltage is being built up by magnetic field effects.

While the voltage can build up to dangerous levels -- the discharge current travels through your groin while stepping into the pool, one leg at a time -- the contained energy is easily bled by a ground wire.

Factory built hot tub assemblies specify that they need a grounded plug. They don't explain, even to their tech reps, the above reason. If you're unlucky enough to plug into an exterior receptacle in a home built to 1960 standards -- (no grounding conductor) you'll get a shock.




Last edited by Tesla; 01/05/13 10:15 PM.

Tesla
MarkD123 #208269 01/06/13 04:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 2,723
Likes: 1
Broom Pusher and
Member
If the Heating Elements of the Trough Heaters are similar to Heat Trace Cable (i.e.: Self-Regulated Heater Cable), using a Class A GFCI (Trip Threshold = 6ma) would result in repeated Trip Issues under normal / correct operation.

In the case of Heat Trace Cables, instead of using the Class A, 6ma Trip Threshold GFCI Devices for controlling excessive "Leakage", Ground Fault Protection for Equipment ("GFPE") Devices are used. The standard Trip Threshold for these GFPE Devices = 30ma (0.03A).

GFPE Branch Circuit Breakers look exactly the same as GFCI Branch Circuit Breakers, only the Catalog Numbers differ...
Example:
GE's THQB 240VAC Class 10KAIC 1 pole 20 Amp GFCI (5ma) Breakers are Product Number "THQB1120GF", whereas the THQB 240VAC Class 10KAIC 1 pole 20 Amp GFPE (30ma) Breakers are Product Number "THQB1120GFEP".
Both look exactly the same, except when viewing the Billing Statements from the Wholesale House;...
the GFPE Device is at least 2x the cost of its GFCI counterpart!!! shocked

--Scott (EE)


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
MarkD123 #208298 01/09/13 11:28 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
H
Member
Tesla,

The one instance there was stray voltage around a pool was when this fiberglass pool was installed. It never had water in it and I asked the EC if he ever had trouble with stray voltage. He said "NOPE! Never had problems." I said , OK. A week later I get a call from the EC asking me what I know about stray voltage and I said WHY? It seems as he was hooking up the ground wire in the wet niche, he got whacked with current. He knew that there was no power to the pool, it wasn't even ready to be filled up with water.

Long story short, he installed 8' ground rods all around the pool 10' apart and exothermically connected all the rods together. Once he got to the back of the pool, the voltage dropped from 25-30 v down to 2-3 volts. You couldn't feel the stray voltage anymore.

MarkD123 #208309 01/10/13 02:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,931
Likes: 34
G
Member
That is why I like concrete pools. Between the pool, the 2000 sq/ft deck, Ufer in the the foundation ring under the screen cage, Ufer under the addition and a bunch of 8' rods, I am will grounded.
Everything is well bonded too.


Greg Fretwell
MarkD123 #208339 01/12/13 01:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,233
H
Member
Greg,

I have only seen the problem of stray voltage with the fiberglass pools. No others. However a long time ago in a far away place... smile I was working with my old boss ( back in 1977?) We were working with an old built in pool and there was problems with voltage I believe. However being a 1-3 year apprentice, I did not know what was going on. Some of the old pools around here were concrete but no rebar. Most didn't have bonding wires around them either and they also use to use brass conduit to go to the wet niche.

Page 4 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5