ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Protecting old fuse panels with 20amps?

John I am under the impression from the bldg dept that any panel replacement, would require upgrade to current minimum code, which I thought was 60 amps/ 240, I know that when I've done service replacements all I had to do is protect feeders at proper rating for wire size. Most of the apts I rehab. which is to say just repair or replace damaged wiring and broken recept.s calc out at about 30-40a 120, then from my code classes at trade school I thought the minimum was 60amps if you were installing new feeders and panel?

Without cracking the book, I know that a single family dwelling requires a minimum of 100 amps, 120/240 three wire.

Apartments (multi-family) dwelling units (NOT Townhouses) have no 'Minimum' that I am aware of. It's done on calculated loads for the unit.

You should check with your local AHJ to see if there are any requirements; or perhaps one of the CA members can provide that info.

Remember I'm in New Jersey!

Minimum Services out my way are 200Amp 240/120 for a detached home...

Condos are 125A 240/120, IIRC. ( I've never been on the end of that wire. )

But then we're required to embed a Ufer with #4 in the slab, too.

One of the reasons that California real estate is more expensive is that our earthquake experiences have driven the California Code to very high levels.

That's the point.
In this case it seems like the branch circuits were not fused to AWG but rather 20A, relying only on the new breaker protecting the existing feeder! And that's most clearly unsafe.

Yeah thats why I was wondering if there was any logic to it, I guess if there not touching the apt panels or wiring. then its "ok",. but on more than three occasions I've heard them say "they didnt have to worry about the fuses in the closet".

There may be another reason to think about this. IF it happens to be a 'clothes' closet....

"but on more than three occasions I've heard them say "they didnt have to worry about the fuses in the closet"."

Hmmm...makes ya stop & think. If it was not 'touched', and was approved when originally installed, that's one story. But, IF it was 'touched' (ie: splice thru the neutrals) it could become a liability issue down the road.

The minimum in sacto now is 200, is that due to AC loads? what about passive cooling or do they not believe it works?

From a purely electrical (not code) point of view this is pretty simple. A 20A breaker in the new main won't protect any existing #14 final circuits in the old panel. So the old panel needs to have 15A fuses for any #14 final circuits. Then the 20A breaker is OK, if the feeder can take it it could even be 25 or 30A.

Completely different topic: are the electricians required to correct existing overfused circuits if they only hook up the feeder to a different source? Around here the answer would be yes, the electrician doing any work at the place is responsible for violations he should have noticed, providing it has already been a violation when the offending equipment was installed.

Tex:
That's a can of worms with 'existing' violations. Basically, anything obvious should be corrected.

Inspectors are supposed to 'only' inspect what is on the electrical permit. However, we can advise the homeowner of what we 'see'. Any life safety violations are reported to the Fire Prevention Inspectors, as they can write $$ violations for compliance.

yeah its one of those judgement calls, and I'm trying to see what others do in their judgement. If its practical i like to see if existing load can fit on a 15amp afci breaker and make closet fuse box into splice box, and let it blow if they add too many extension cords, with recomendation that they need to add plugs upto code with new sub installed, in location that has clearances etc. My own experience contracting has been repair work, the occasional service swap out and upgrade, fishing new bath and kitchen circuits where desired, and other experience working for others in ac/dc solar installs, and large single family homes where the PM or office did all the judgement calls. This one client, that's been good has a tendancy to get the place ready to rent before asking if electrical is OK, I guess they want tokeep their painter happily employed......