ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Would you consider a service upgrade,residential,'modifying branch ckts'? Hence the need for AFCI.

IMO No, this is regarding the change to add AFCI when adding to or modifying an existing ckt.

There seems to be a wide variety of opinions in some of my circles. Some of whom are inspectors.


Thanx guys.

I probably would not force the AFCI on them but I might suggest using them on any circuits that were not multiwire.

The Libertarian in me says this should be the INFORMED CUSTOMER'S choice on an existing installation. You can certainly make a good safety argument but the first time they start getting nuisance trips they will want their old breakers back.

Vermont's chief inspector (thankfully retired) insisted the state's rules require afci's for service upgrades

this became impossible, due to multiwires

his response (and this was a good 10 years ago) was to go back and install them when they came to the market

his stance lost out to an nfpa ruling, i believe a Mr. Jeff Sargent may have been involved

that said i've sold a lot of afci's to residences with K&T, even sold an insurance company on it once

no, i don't tell them what the manufacturer claims (or in the case of UL1699, what they don't come clean on)

i just tell them it's enhanced protection

~S~

Not an inspector or electrician ... but I do have that bit of libertarian in me as well. When a home owner upgrades something, he/she should never be forced to upgrade something else. If the a change in a circuit would not require a change in a breaker, the breaker should not be otherwise changed. But if the breaker has to be changed, and AFCI is available, it should be changed to AFCI.

As for multiwire, I would simply classify that as "AFCI is not available", except for the CH panels where I have seen 2-pole AFCIs in their catalog (maybe BR panels have them, too). Square-D and others need to get on board and quit making excuses, or else completely fund a nationwide "replace every residential multiwire" campaign.

There are numerous scenarios where people would simply not do upgrades at all if forced to "over upgrade" or disallowed to "incrementally upgrade". We should want homeowners to upgrade as much as they can afford. One scenario I had mentioned a long time ago was the case where someone with an old bathroom mirror/light/outlet combo that had ungrounded unprotected outlet on a 15 amp #14 circuit could not make this "incremental upgrade" by adding a GFCI outlet in the wall next to this mirror thing, because they would be forced to upgrade the wiring to allow 20 amp to meet the 20 amp requirement. Basically the code, if fully enforced for upgrades, would be forcing someone to stay more unsafe than they could be.

A landlord renting residential is another story. I'm all for requiring them to meet the current code every time a tenancy change takes place, including a re-inspect if that hasn't happened in the past X years.

As for a home being sold, it is a frequent case of homes not meeting today's code. A list of every upgrade needed to meet current code should be provided to the buyer before closing, and buyer allowed to withdraw on the basis of electrical code issue if the seller won't correct or deduct estimated value from price. I don't mind buying a house out of compliance as long as I know exactly what I'm getting into and what it will cost me to correct it, and a discount to cover that. I'd actually like buying a home where I have to do a total rewire since then I'd know even the hidden parts are now done right by the people I'd hire to do it.

Thanks folks. I'm a card carrying Republican. (not sure of the connection)

Is a service change - 60A to 200A - a modification to branch ckts?

Well there are two ways this can go.

If a service change is deemed as requiring simply changing everything between the PoCo connection and the branch circuit connections, then none of the 'downstream' requirements come into the picture.

If a service change is deemed to be 'modifying' everything downstream, then it's a complete rewire - and the scale of the work will in turn require additional circuits, TR receptacles, AFCI's, hard-wired smokes,that ground wire, etc.

Keep in mind that you're already required to 'up' the service to 100 amp- even if the place is a tiny hut that gets along quite happily on a 30-amp fusebox.

So why the service change? Well, because the property changed hands, and the insurance company wants 100 amps, wants breakers in place of fuses, and probably frowns on K&T as well.

With the remodel a complete gut, it's but a short step to require modern earthquate, fire, and energy rules. It is as if someone waved a magic wand and can require you to knock down and rebuild your home simply because of its' age - all because a simple sale took place.

My comments on such a construction of code requirements range from quoting the Tories to the profane.

IMO, you're not 'altering' the circuit any more than were you to replace an ivory receptacle with a white one.

Unless something has recently changed, every MA code class I’ve been to in the past, they’ve always said NO to AFCI’s being required on a panel change. If you add a new circuit, then Yes for that circuit. If you are replacing a panel, that is not a new branch circuit installation or a change to the existing branch circuit.

The AFCI requirement in 406 doesn’t even kick in until 2014.

IMO, the requirement for GFCI protection found in 406.4 also only applies when you replace a receptacle, so you would not be required to install GFCI’s on the existing branch circuits on a panel change either, although most of us usually will.

I make my own cards.

Without consulting code, IMHO I'd say it is not a change of the circuits themselves, but is a change of breakers such that circuits which would require AFCI, and for which AFCI is available, would need to now be AFCI. Someone might argue that if all the old breakers can be used in the new panel, they can be used and grandfathered in (I wouldn't fight that argument, but would not pose it, either).

Really? So we will be on the NEXT cycle.
Bureaucracy at it's best!!

Even if that would throw on an additional cost?
$39-our COST- $59-CUSTOMER COST.

For essentially every ckt in the home?
\As we don't typically price in circuit checking and verification on our service upgrades,do we?

You can't in good conscience tell me that you price in AFCI on a service change can you?

Now GFCI - I always up sell when passable.

Leland:
NJ stance on your OP is "NO".

I'll keep it as short as I can....

Panel change falls under 'Rehab" (5:23-6) which presently uses the 2005 NEC as adopted in NJ, which was NO AFCI at all.

Gutting an existing SFD, and rewiring all; NO AFCI required. Doing an addition (increase in structure volume) is AFCI required. Unless, an existing circuit is 'extended' into the addition, then NO AFCI.

Not that any of the above helps in MA, but that's how it is here.

Thank you John-

Here if we add a bedroom or go over a certain %ft of an existing dwelling then it must come up to current code.
Not the existing wiring,but new and the smokes and new ckts etc.

Nope. Since their not required on a panel change, I don’t price them into the job.
I generally offer them as an option though, but with a disclaimer that there may be additional, extra cost, changes to the existing wiring needed due to things like shared neutrals, etc.
Usually because of the high added cost to low benefit ratio, they will pass on them, as I would.

Thank you folks,

I was starting to doubt myself,I read it and thought no AFCI.

I have a few upgrades coming up and did not carry AFCI.
Then some code conversations have taken place with fellow sparkies and the interpretations were coming out.

Must admit,I was starting to sweat,hopeing I wouldn't lose my shirt.

Leland,

Here in NJ it used to be that if you hit 50% of the house, you would have to bring it all up to code, but now as John stated we have a "Rehab" code.

I am an electrical inspector and I would require afci's The rule of thumb is what ever you pull apart has to go back together with today's code as if it's new construction

No because you are just changing the panel and not adding new circuits...

Leo,

Nice puppy. Would that be a Terrier of some sorts?

Leo, you would not enforce AFCI breakers in a new panel that is part of an service upgrade? Why not? Just seeking a differnet perspective

Sparkyinak:

As Kjay, Leland, and Leo are all in the Commonwealth of Mass.; they ALL should be on the same page based on Ma. state adoption of the current NEC.

I stated NJ state position on this matter, which sounds similar to Ma.

I have to ask you if Alaska has a statewide adopted NEC??

betcha there's some back door politics on this one fella's...

~S~:
Don't know if it's exactly back door style, but our Rehab is now based on '05 NEC, 'Regular' is still '08, & we're doing mandatory CEUs on '11 NEC. The powers that be are in the process of 'updating' Rehab to '08....which I tend to say "why bother" just wait for '11.

Confused??

John,


I am totally confused! I say throw it all out and go back to knob and tube! Just kidding!

In RI too no AFCI's on a service change . according to the state inspector.

When performing a service change the electrician is responsible to verify that each branch circuit he reconnects is in good repair and adequate for the purpose it was installed, at the time it was installed.
so if you want to reconnect a K&T circuit you need to check that there are no 3 wire outlets installed, no light fixtures that need to be connected to 90 degree wire or be bonded. You want to check for extensions to circuits that were done badly too. Check at every device to see the insulation on the wire is still in tact. Only the deficiencies need to be corrected. For a relocated outlet? today's code. Upgrades for outlets where the walls are stripped to bare studs.

Mikesh:
I know a few sparkies here in NJ that would really, really hate to have to do any of the above!

The liberal in me would want to make sure people don't have to live with totally unsafe installations while they save up for a complete re-install of everything. Instead, they should be able to upgrade incrementally. IMHO, a partial improvement now, and finishing later, is better than leaving it unimproved until later.

If a panel is being replaced, that is tearing out breakers. And I do think the AFCIs need to go in at this time on the circuits requiring them. As stated, there is the issue of shared neutral circuits still around. Tearing those out and redoing can get expensive. If the panel were in reasonably decent condition, I'd say replace the wiring first and the panel later. But if the panel is the thing in worse condition, and the home owner can currently only afford to upgrade one or the other, what would happen? I hope it's not "leave things unchanged".

Reading the comments herein, IMHO what Mikesh says is the 'Canadian' way seems to be what I refer to as acceptable trade practice here, and compliant.

As to the AFCI installation at a service upgrade, I feel the State (NJ) has the 'right' outlook for now. We (NJ) have been slow to adopt AFCI requirements ('08)compared to a lot of other states, and the sparkies I deal with have it OK by now.

That doesn't really happen in Canada - at least in my part of the country.

Hi Guys,
twh- I agree,we don't take it to the extreme,we will do a visual and look for obvious issues. If we ever tried to check all that,we would never get a job,time involved etc.

However,if we are adding or otherwise in contact with that ckt-away from the panel,we will recommend repairs.
Ultimately it is Mr. Jones' call,his check book.

My rule was I would not walk away from something that was blatantly unsafe. If this was an old building that was missing a few GFCIs I would recommend that they upgrade them but it wasn't a red tag if it was out of the scope of work.
If I saw a circuit hard wired with an orange cord I would be a little more hard nosed, no matter what the permit was all about.

I just inspected a job yesterday and I asked the homeowner if everything was working OK. She said no, there were a few circuits that kept tripping. I asked a few questions and it seems the vacuum cleaner plugged into certain circuits would trip the AFCI. She wanted to know what she could do about it. First thing I suggested was to try the vacuum in a different circuit, and to try a different vacuum ( or dust buster/handheld, etc)in the same outlet and see if the breker trips. She said the EC who just got done wiring her new reno work said that it was the AFCI's fault. She asked me if that was true, and all I can say to her was that I have heard of such problems, but I haven't seen or heard of any cures yet. I didn't know if it was an appliance problem or a wiring problem.

I think "IF" is the second biggest word in the English language.

The 'authorities' assert point-blank that there has never been a documented instance of a properly functioning, listed appliance falsly tripping an AFCI. Look carefully at that statement, and there are plenty of "ifs" lurking within.

"Listed" rules out the very large number of things we use that are not listed, and are not required to be listed. That's the first hurdle- especially if your 'appliance' is some trendy European or commercial gizmo.

That in turn implys following the manufacturers' instructions. This can get interesting, as many appliances have instructions that some will assert are in conflict with the NEC. For example, refrigerators that say NOT to use on a GFCI circuit.

"Properly functioning" refers to TODAY'S standard, which was likely revised quite recently to accomodate the GFCI and AFCI problems. That expensive, top-quality Swedish vacuum of yours - the one you get as a wedding gift 30 years ago - wasn't made to these standards ... so POP goes the breaker.

Naturally, the 'experts' will then assert that it's your fault you didn't replace all your stuff with new when they changed their standards.

Harold:
From your comments..."She said the EC who just got done wiring her new reno work said that it was the AFCI's fault. She asked me if that was true, and all I can say to her was that I have heard of such problems, but I haven't seen or heard of any cures yet. I didn't know if it was an appliance problem or a wiring problem."

The ECs comment that it is the fault of the AFCI is (IMHO) a not correct. He should have explained the function of AF and then proceeded try another appliance in the tripping circuit(s), as you mentioned.

A recent new SFD had two (2) tripped AFCIs when I walked to the panel. One reset, one immediatley tripped. The trim carpenter had a small miter saw that tripped the one I reset. It worked fine in a countertop 20 amp GFI outlet. Plug the same saw into an AFCI outlet...trip. The second circuit that immediatley tripped had a wayward nail thru the NM, HG&N straight thru.

There have been a few others (AFCI) issues, bad splices, bad AFCI cb, & the fateful...MWBC! We all learn by experience!