ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

Times is changging. Electricity and telecomunications will soon be unseparable.

How do we benefit from this?

Should we( electricians) be the ones to push regulations under the code. Does that means more standards, safety, work?

Topic is not related only for Canada.

Mer:

Here in New Jersey tele/data (commercial) is installed either by ECs or tele/data contractors that hold a State issued "Wiring Exemption Card", which is basically a license for tele/data installation.

We also have a Fire Alarm & Burg Alarm licenses for those installations, both resi & comm.

For a long period of time I often wondered why some ECs did not install tele/data, cable TV, and other low voltage wiring.

Hope this helps you

Florida lets an unlimited ED do data/phone LV too although few are really trained for data.
There is a specialty contractor license for LV only.

For a long period of time I often wondered why some ECs did not install tele/data, cable TV, and other low voltage wiring.


Because they are being honest, many do not know how. Unfortunately most of the ones that do do the work only think they know how or just throw something in for the money.

Just because your license says you can and your supply house sells the material doesn't make you qualified. You need training and experience.

Should we( electricians) be the ones to push regulations under the code. Does that means more standards, safety, work?


What you don't understand is that these are separate trades and they aren't part of an EC's scope of work. So your statement that they are inseparable is not quite true. The electrical trade would like to control them but the current position of the construction industry has been to make LV a separate entity from electrical as shown by it's own division in the master format.

-Hal

Who are the people who can work in this field then. Before telecom was not part of electrician concern as long as it is extra low voltage. Now it is diffrent.

I say that all codes are made by people from the field. We are one of them and we should help to bring those regulations.
With all respect now at schools they tech us about splicing fiberoptics and programing.

Personally-I don't want to be an assambler.

I agree the trade is going to split. You are going to have guys who just want to work on big fat copper lots of amps and magnetic controllers the size of a small car then you will have guys who are working on computer systems that happen to be connected by wire, some of it pretty big.

Hbiss replied to this:For a long period of time I often wondered why some ECs did not install tele/data, cable TV, and other low voltage wiring.

"Because they are being honest, many do not know how. Unfortunately most of the ones that do do the work only think they know how or just throw something in for the money.

Just because your license says you can and your supply house sells the material doesn't make you qualified. You need training and experience."

No doubt that training is necessary, and required for data/comm, security systems, card access, CCTV! I make mention of that fact to the apprentices at Vo-Tech.

Yes, I was one of the guys that liked the big, fat copper, big transformers, panels, etc.

I lived in both worlds and I like the fat copper better myself. There is something reassuring hearing a huge magnetic controller clunking in and seeing a whole building light up.

You certainly can't say one requires more skill than the other, it is just a different skill set.

I do think we will be seeing a lot of cross training as electronic controllers continue the move into the equipment vaults. Smart homes, smart commercial buildings and the smart grid will make us all computer guys.

First let me say that I have a lot of respect for the folks who do LV wiring and IT installations and they know it.

That being said, I like to lightheartedly kid them that they chose their line of work because some of us can't handle the really big electrons...and some of us can't handle the really little electrons.

I think it takes a different temperament to deal with wrestling a 500 kcmil into a lug than it does to finesse a 24 AWG without untwisting or overbending it.

Folks who can do both well are getting very scarce.
I can see a day in the very near future when there will be separate Subs to handle Power wiring and Communications wiring.

Ghost:
You hit it right. I personally do not have the patience for the 'little wire', nor do I have the hands for it either. Many years of THHN/THWN & the 'big stuff' has taken its toll on my hands. I replaced all the phone lines in my home last year, and the terminations were tough.

I agree with you on the respect also. I have done inspections on three large data centers recently, and the cabling installs were really outstanding!! I commented to the installers "nice job"! One foreman was shocked!

I think it takes a different temperament to deal with wrestling a 500 kcmil into a lug than it does to finesse a 24 AWG without untwisting or overbending it.


I agree with that, I am a telcom guy and former EC. I can handle a small data installation but I would go out of my mind if I had to terminate hundreds of CAT6 jacks.

Also, you really can't lump all LV together. LV is made up of many separate and very specialized trades such as data, telecom, CATV, audio, etc,etc. Being proficient at one does not mean the person knows anything about another.

The NEC tries to cover all of LV with the singular objective of providing a safe installation. Following its requirements does not in any way mean that the installation is technically correct or even that it will work. The NEC only provides the minimum requirements so that the installation will not harm people or property. Consequently, any licensing only grants that the person who passed the test has a working knowledge of the Code requirements. A license should not be viewed as a license to do such work, only that you know how to do it safely.

Unfortunately there are some who think holding a license means that they are competant to do whatever it covers.

-Hal

That was a great explanation. So what now. We have many telecom guys who can't work under power. Every telecom guy should be partially electrician and specialize in particular field. For this you need recognized standards. If you are an electrician it is easier to approch this problem. Now it is sad couse people do use it in a bad way, but again it is becouse of no NTC-national telecomunications code.

Mersadrad:
Keeping in mind that you are in Canada & I can only comment on the situation here in NJ....

Electrical Contractors are 'allowed' to do all wiring by state law; IF they so choose, and are qualified/trained to do it 'all'.

Yes, there are ECs that do data/comm very well, and ECs that do data/comm not so well.

Data/comm requires a state issued 'Wiring Exemption Card' for data/comm ONLY! Period, that's it, NO electrical work.

My personal business philosophy was 'do what you do best, and what you know' from day one to the last day.

The actual functionality & operation of the data/comm is not addressed by the NEC, as the wiring methods and materials are addressed. (As Hbiss stated above)

For any Canadian information please try a PM or email to one of the Canadian members, or send me a PM/email & I will move this thread to the Canadian Section!

No need John, it is clear where one side of our trade is shifting. In Canada basicly we folow what US do. We take what we think is right and rotate a little what we don't find it nesserry. It is quite the same on this topic.


Chears...Mersad

During the early years of datacom standards were very much lower.

In many jurisdictions no license even existed.

That's what happens in a brand new field.

As time has gone by LV established itself as the lower paid craft.

That was a market decision. The typical 'apprentice' to a LV shop was just a monkey. No way did the j-men share much. Low pay and intermittent jobs caused massive turn-over.

Comes the dot.com boom and every monkey under the sun is hopping around pulling in datacom. Gradually the market realized that you can't use monkeys -- and standards lifted.

The latest high performance datacom is a whole new breed that requires serious talent -- and testing equipment to go with it.

So the datacom crowd has really elevated their game.

Out my way circa 2004 the LV crowd started up apprenticeship standards and back round checks, meaning no felons, no drugs, no arrests at all to stay in their club.

That has really elevated their game.

With the hard times now they want perfect driving records, too.

All of which means that their wage scale has headed straight north.

By comparison, j-men electricians are ten-a-penny out my way -- still.

Home construction is off by 90 percent here abouts.

But paranoia is a booming market.

...you need recognized standards. If you are an electrician it is easier to approch this problem.

I completely agree that an electrician is going to easily learn and comply with the Code requirements of LV work whereas in my experience many if not most LV guys don't even know what the NEC or Code is and many don't even care.

During the early years of datacom standards were very much lower...

If you are talking about the standards for techs or workers, yes that's true but in many respects the thinking is still there today that anybody can install LV and it shouldn't cost much. So we have hacks who know nothing and customers who hire them and pay them nothing. Supply and demand.

-Hal

Just an observation on data/comm.....
Recent inspection, data/comm laying on ceiling grid; strung over sprinkler pipes, & ty-wraped to MC ltg whips. Looked at the floor penetrations...1-1/4" EMT, conn/bushing on 'my side', down to lower floor....salami cuts, no conn/bush & 'what fire stop??" Mid-level floor of 15 story office bldg.

Red sticker & "Ill look at the rest, after you correct"

That was what I call a hack.

Next stop...above ceiling for data ctr. 1450+ cables, tray job two floors, 10 story office bldg. Only 'bad' thing I could find is they added another 175 cables & locations. Not a hack.

BTW, both are data/comm & access control contractors.