ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

It's one thing when the customer is simply trying to say "I don't need very much, and don't want to pay for more than is necessary to make the job happen" .... and another when the jackalope is trying to figure out what lies to tell, what angles to work.

The examples given above of the town hall are good examples of the customer - in this case the accounting folks - not knowing what they want, but also being budget conscious. We all have numerous stories about jobs like that; my favorite is the office remodel where they want all the lights on one switch, because they think you charge only 'per opening.' (Later they fret that the entire place must be lit up when one guy is working late, or when the entire office goes dark when maintenance replaces a single ballast).

A more sinister example is the 'hair salon' I bid on last year. The moment the customer figured out that 'hair salons' had special electrical and ventilation needs, he suddenly changed his plans. The city was only asked to permit a simple division of a retail space .... after inspection, amazingly enough, the place was rented by a hair salon. In this instance, the owner deliberately leased an inadequate space simply to avoid the code requirements - placing the burden on the tenant. All my bid accomplished was to teach him what lies to tell.

That, of course, is why I brought up the topic of 'what is REALLY going on in the garage." When someone asks "what's the least I can do," the stage is set for disappointment. It would be irresponsible to answer, without first learning just what the guy is trying to accomplish.

Another example is when an owner has built a nice 2 story office building. He has tenants on the first floor,They are a doctor and an optician. So the owner decides to finish off the second floor and get more tenants. Now does he install wiring as per sec. 517 of the NEC or does he just install regular wiring. He doesn't know what type of tenant he will get for that second floor space. Ihave seen it done both ways. If he gets another tenant that needs 517 wiring, he will have to remove sheet rock and start all over again.

Yes the customers motivation is always a challenge. I know contractors that will tell a customer that if he wants to build a suite in his basement that it better have a building permit or get another electrician. and there are electrical contractors that will work to decieve the municipality by declaring 1 purpose and after the final inspections are complete cut in the range and counter outlets from the circuits he hid before drywall was installed but after those inspections. Often both installations are completely safe but 1 is stained with decpetion that often sticks to a future owner.
Most developers are looking for short term profit so they spec minimum, often neglecting the potential cost and grief the customer will have once they realize the suite and the main occupancy share a meter and are now constantly arguing with their tennants over electrical usage.

As soon as i mention Electrical permit for these types of installations I dont seem to get the job so yes there is other contractors that are getting this work but i assume it will eventually go south on them.

One other thing to remember is the customer will likely have motor loads (circular saw, lawn mower, etc.) on the tail end of a 100' orange extension cord plugged into that shed. That's where voltage drop can become a real issue.

mikesh,

You talk about contractors finishing off basements etc without permits, lately the Realtor look for permits for finished rooms and they come to the town hall to make sure that a permit was taken out. If they don't the next seller of the house is responsible for the finished area. They will have to pay the back taxes on it, and the building permit and the fines for occupying an area with out a certificate. When my town finds a room finished with out permit, we go out a look at the job, the job will always fail until the owner gets permits, pays the fine, then they have to get licensed people in there to check out all of the hidden wires, connections etc. Then we will come back to the job and see if it then makes code. We look for missing outlets, GFI protection, etc.

Looks better than what we do. No political will to persue a lot of these un-permitted jobs. Usually wait for a complaint or unavoidable discovery or catch them in the act.
A problem with a property does go to the new owner but if the vendor delared the truth about the property IE the suite was build without a permit (pretty common answer too) then the purchaser also buys the risk of getting caught and having to return the building to legal use or converting to the desired and already built room, suite, accessory building or what ever was done without a permit.
It gets very messy and every case is a custom job regardless of all the policies and laws we might have.

The Lee County Property Appraiser is pretty good about catching anything you can see from outside but they don't tell the building department about it. They just tack the appropriate "tax units" on the tax bill.

I often wonder what the result would be if the building department did try to come back on someone who had been paying taxes on an illegal addition for a decade or so.

Harold:
Our CCO inspector (non-DCA, non-UCC) scans the Twp files for any 'open' permits, and a back record of any/all work performed with permits before he goes to do the CCO inspection.

He can average 2-3 non-permitted finished basements, or other things each week. Replaced panels, furnaces, water heaters, AC, alarms, etc. are also 'discovered'.

He came on one a few weeks back that was finished 20 years back!

The HO applies for permits (B/E/F/P), provides a letter that they are aware of the existing condition as un-permitted work, and are subject to a fine.

If required, licensed contractors are required to correct any code violations discovered upon the inspections. A few (over the years) had to be ripped apart, some are OK.

That all said....this thread has to get back to the OP's topic.