ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area AFCI's and Fires

The reason we started with bedrooms is precicely that for 8 hours a night the occupants are unconcious. Presumably with the smoke detector and the AFCI then we would get enough warning to get out of bed and maybe get out. During the day we are presumably awake and might notice the smoke or flames a little sooner.
I have been reading an article "Residential Electrical System Aging Research Program" It was written by David A. Dini P.E. from UL. It was written for the Fire Protection Research Foundation in July 2008.
The 450 fire a year are in homes mostly older than 40 years so we need AFCI there more than anywhere.
Most of the wire before thermoplastic insulation was rubber insulated and a great number of the discovered problems in the branch wiring is related to decomposition of that insulation.
If you can find this article on the internet I think it give an interesting perspective on electrical faults and the causes of residential fires.

Mikesh ... you've brought out two of the basic issues I have with most of the code changes since, say, the '70's .... and in particular, one of my gripes about the code aproach to AFCI's.

Older homes: Yup, no doubt. Yet, as the very study you cite makes plain, the older homes had quite a few very basic violations, the sort of stuff even Edison, maybe even Franklin, knew better than to do. For example, overloaded circuits. Improper splices.

Which brings me to the AFCI issue. Assuming the technology is what it is claimed to be, and the desire is to save lives ... would not the very highest priority be to add AFCI's to older systems, systems that may hve degraded over time, are probably already inadequate, and have most likely see some unqualified 'repairs?' This is a circumstance screaming for an AFCI device, since there is unlikely to be an AFCI available for the service equipment available.

Yet, the AFCI device has been staunchly opposed by the breaker makers. Having had the rug pulled out once already, it's no surprise the device makers are wary of entering the market now.

I'll go it one better: give me an AFCI device that also tells me WHY it tripped. Overload? Ground fault? Arc detected?

With the AFCI breakers also incorporating 30mA ground-fault detection, I also want to know why NONE of them are classified by UL for providing the 30mA ground fault protection where it is required for protecting equipment. UL is quite plain on this point: NO AFCI is listed for that use. What's the story?

Thanks Mike, That article refreshes memory what to look for when doing service upgrades.
I tried to up-load the file but it is too big.
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files//PDF/Research/RESAReport.pdf

Good pictures too

i wrote Dave Dini a deacde ago asking if afci's on old K&T wiring would be a good idea.....~S~

I don't see AFCIs being very effective on any wiring system that does not include an EGC. It appears to me that most of the trips are from the ground fault circuit and not the fancy arc signature circuit. The GFP trips with a 30 to 50 mA fault, the arc signature circuit doesn't even look for faults with currents less than 5 amps.

but without specs, how would we know? all i really DO know is they are sold as ARC FAULT (i.e.-the wiring has a series or parralel arc, it faults)

ergo, the onus of proof remians it's marketed name and white book declaration(s)

in fact, i've recommended them on old K&T, as a temporary sauve until a rewire can be accomplished, which was the jist of my writing Dave D years ago

so far, i've one insurance company that's gone along with that....

~S~

Reno:

You wrote..."I'll go it one better: give me an AFCI device that also tells me WHY it tripped. Overload? Ground fault? Arc detected?"

As I don't profess to have a lot of experience with AFCI, as an EC or AHJ 'cause AFCI is 'new' here, I did find this. I don't have the info with me, but doesn't Siemens have LED's on the face of the AF breaker that indicate 'what' caused the trip?

As to installing AF on existing wiring, IMHO that will be a nightmare, based on what I have heard and read.

Boy Reno if only we could have an upgrade rule or this installation is licenced for X # of years and that at the end of the period an inspection would be done and any mandated upgrade be performed. Alas the structure of approvals and codes only apply to a new installation with small exceptions for maintenance or if a part of the electrical is improperly being used. Once an installation is finalized it is for ever assuming the conditions of use don't change.
I especially like the idea of a trip indicator that differentiates the possible trip reason. Clearly the troubleshooting exercise is different for overload vs. over current or arc fault.
I agree my initial enthusiasm for AFCI was tainted when I started reading the stories that series arcs are detectable in the 3rd generation breakers. This was part of the original promise and all the sales hype. Of course we got these new devices a little later than the US did so maybe we started at 3rd generation. I think we actually started mandating them before the series arc detection.
I wish the manufacturers would get these breakers listed for their GFI protection so contractors could use them for heat tracing circuits. The current 30 ma trip GFI breakers are $200.00 never mind the GFCI breakers yet an AFCI breaker that can detect 30 ma ground faults is only $60.00.
The bottom line is I still see AFCI breakers as an advancement in breaker technologies and look forward to their greater utilization in residential applications.

yes HotOne, two, g-fault & arc.....




well we in Vt were a code cycle ahead of the nation. The chief inspector here wanted them installed on all service upgrades

eventually, the verdict came from the nfpa that we didn't need to hold existing wiring to 210.12 , being there were so many multiwire circuits. (he actually argued that we should go back when they were marketed)

in the intrum, much ado occured, pro/con about usage on older wiring

in fairness, it's the older wiring that needs the protection an afci can offer in a state that has more non-license work in it than licensed work.

as it stands, i've ten years worth of them out there on a variety of vintage wiring

my only regret is their disngenous marketing, but as i do not represent the manufacturer, i feel the burden of validity is not (nor should be) on the EC

we can't fight city hall, and if any here have been listening to the recent 'gang of five' rulings, none of us is going to have a prayer of doing so from here on....

~S~

~S~

sparky:
Thanks for the info. Yes, I have to agree with the older wiring needing the AF. How much time/trouble would you say you spent installing AF on a service upgrade, or panel swap?