ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Auxiliary Gutter Sizing

OK, I'm going to make some assumptions, and wild guesses.

I'm thinking that the gutter was an attempt to make up for poorly placed pipes.

Since everything before the meter is PoCo territory, either they have already pulled in the wires, or are refusing to.

I suspect that there's a dispute, and they're refusing to pull in the wires.

With that in mind ... it's just barely possible that the gutter can be replaced by a length of 4" sealtite. Maybe. The offset of the pipes is enough to make this a tough application. (BTW, use an angle grinder to cut the sealtite). Get PoCo approval before you try.

Best approach is to remove the gutter and DIG. Those pipes should go down 5ft ... dig down, tilt, and somehow make a piece with a slight bend; use compression connectors. For a hole that deep, get a backhoe, and give yourself a real nice ramp in, and workspace on either side of the pipes. If the wires are not in you won't have to worry too much; if they are, have the PoCo kill them first.

The original question was:
"Is this gutter properly sized?"

The wireway should be marked somewhere with the maximum conductor size. Try looking on the inside of the cover.

I agree, and - as I detailed in my first post - the answer is "no." There just isn't enough distance between the 'in' and the 'out.'

Reno, I would disagree with the "wet" vs "damp" assessment, if only because of the dent in the top of the gutter. That will fill up with water that has no place to go but in, around those couplers they are using for nipples (It sure looks to me like couplers with bushings screwed into them from the inside)
I also bet they set the gutter. Laid the meter stack on it, crushing the top and then attached it to the wall. I imagine that one piece of strut buckled or slid ... if it was even at the right height to start with.

I agree 100% with your assessment of the gutter sizing.

The other question is what is in the 3 (or is it 4) pipes coming in the bottom, besides the small one on the right that looks like the GEC. Per chance did they put a phase per pipe and the smaller one in the back in the #2 spot with the grounded conductor?
How else do you parallel 2 sets of 3 hot and a neutral in 3 pipes (plus 1)?
If so, maybe that is a damp location. The water would boil off before it had a chance to penetrate

I'll agree that there are meny things about the install that I do not understand, and a few other things (like the couplings) that could have been done better.

I just wanted, in my first post, to stick to the question. I wanted to take the opportunity to explain the different factors that go into gutter sizing.

The more I look at it, I think the OP has some major re-work in his future.

The GEC is connected to the top of the main switch through that LB.

The other conduits at the bottom of the gutter include a 4inch conduit underground for a feeder to a proposed detached shed on the property.

The smaller 1 and 1/4 conduit at the bottom of the gutter goes to the parking lot pole lights.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but you get to rip this all out and start over.

Everything before the meter is "PoCo territory." You're not allowed to run your feeders through the same raceways as the service conductors - or the meter cabinet for that matter.

Now there's no option but to get the backhoe, and place those pipes where they belong. Service straight to the bottom of the meter can, the other pipes straight to the appropriate meter bank. Make that gutter go away.

You just can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned. I'll bet you anything that those 2" LB's aren't factory approved for 4- 3/0 conductors. They either have to be stamped with that fill rating or they have to be 12" long. If you can show me a standard length LB rated for that many 3/0's I'd love to buy some.

OK, lets say this gutter is not considered a pull box and sizing is subject to 366.58(A) which says to go by the dimensions in table 312.6(A)

Then the dimension for 600MCM conductors in the Auxiliary Gutter would be 8 inches.

This depends on whether you consider the wiring in the gutter was pulled in or layed in.

Can we agree on this?

Oh, I would agree with the concept ... but there's no way that gutter is anything but a pull box.

366.58 addresses wires that terminate, rather than pass through. There are no lugs or bussbars here.

Since you're bending the wires twice, (once in and once out) you would have to apply that table twice- giving you a dimension of 28", not 14." (Otherwise, there's absolutely no point in having the code requirements for pull boxes).At this point, though, debating the gutter is sort of like arguing whether the Titanic was painted the right color.

It's not my intent to nit-pic things to death; it's just that, in the course of this discussion, enough other issues arose to make the gutter size the least of your problems.

Having metered (load/tenant) circuits in the same space as unmetered (supply/PoCo) ones is a major foul; apart from the issue of power theft, it puts you in the position of having to work around stuff you can't turn off.

Which, naturally, brings us back to the placement of those underground pipes. There's no getting around it; the pipes were placed wrong. Once you dig out the pipes and place them correctly, you won't need that gutter anymore.

Gregtaylor also made a good catch; on the load side those 2" LB's are way too small for 3/0's. 3/0 is kind of a goofy size, but I have no idea what size service each tenant is getting.

Others (off forum) have raised questions as to the design of this service. It seems that many PoCo's would require a test bypass, and others would want a master meter and CT cabinet for this service. Those are issues that only you can address.

It's never pleasant to have a job blow up on you, and doubly nasty in these tight times.

What to do with the gutter? Well, add a few brackets and I'd say it's a great tools and parts tray for when you work off a scissors lift. I'm not being a wise-guy; how do you think I got my "parts tray?"