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Joined: Mar 2005
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Originally Posted by HotLine1
Reno:
First I would say no receptacles at the sitting area. Looking at that fine pic, I see no location on the 'face' to mount a receptacle. A carefully selected location, perhaps underneath the 'tabletop, or underneath the 'drawer' area, could serve as a GP 6-12.
Difficulty integrating a receptacle into the kitchen designer's island does not mean it's not required. There are other options, including floor-mount receptacles. Or changing the cabinet design. Aesthetics or difficulty in incorporation into a given design are N/A.

NEC sets no limit on the height of wall receptacles, only the spacing (6/12') so receptacles mounted high on the bar may be allowed to perform double-duty... so long as the room outside the kitchen was an eating area or other area permitted to share the 20A GFCI kitchen circuits.

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Joined: Apr 2002
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Reno:
Another comment on my end:
If there is no 'island', peninsula, etc., upon rough, or on the plans (sketch/layout), when it comes time for the final....the price is paid.



John
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Steve, you have touched on the real issue. Small appliance circuits are not permitted to serve the living room so even if a counter top receptacle would be in the acceptable 210.52(A) range, they don't count ... legally.
It would have been very easy for me to cheat this in my renovation and I am sure I could have tricked a home inspector but it would have been wrong. Since I had the wall open and a general lighting circuit was available it never even crossed my mind. We still use the circuits somewhat interchangeably but if anyone ever asked, I can demonstrate that there are SA circuits serving the countertop and a GL circuit on the low wall.


Greg Fretwell
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Steve:
Keep in mind that receptacles above 5'6" don't qualify as the 'required', they are 'in addition to' or 'optional'.

Also, no mention was made to utilizing the SA circuits, or what area the counter/bar was in.

Making judgements from a photo can and will create much debate, as the photo leaves out a lot of required information.

And, yes design & asthetics are not a reason to 'eliminate' any NEC required receptacles or other items


John
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That's why us inspectors make the big bucks. :)))
I would approve the receptacles if they were mounted beneath the countertop as suitable for double duty. As long as they were near the front of the edge and could be reached by the 24" cords of the appliances. And Greg would also (I think)


George Little
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Greg, you hit upon another bit of code trivia when you brought up the SABC.

Remember, all the receptacles serving any eating areas - pantry, breakfast nook, dining room, etc. - are required to be on a 20 amp SABC. IMO, the 'floor area' receptacles would have to be on an SABC in the area of the bar. I would accept the rest of the living room (as shown in the picture) not being on a SABC.

Indeed, the 'living room' can NOT be on an SABC.

It's an interesting distinction, as the 'living room' has to be AFCI protected, while the areas served by the SABC's does not. Indeed, receptacles in the toe-kick of that bar would neither have to be GFCI nor AFCI protected - a very rare situation in the current edition of the NEC.

Does anyone else think that designers stay up nights trying to give inspectors headaches? :D:D

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I didn't find it that confusing in my situation. The receptacles on the living room side that could not "serve the countertop" per 210.52(C) were 210.52(A) and would be AFCI if I was on the 2008.
If I had a receptacle on the kitchen side >12" below they would be SABC but not required to be GFCI. In a practical sense they probably still would be. The only reason I could think of not to would be if it was the fridge.
My fridge is on the bathroom fan/light circuit because that is the way it was wired, way back in 1963 and I saw no reason to change it. I did pull in a separate 20 for the bath vanity top for the hair dryers, very soon after I moved here. (maybe one "trip" after I moved here) wink


Greg Fretwell
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If an island unit can be moved, that is it's not fixed to the floor, is it a table...?

We are constructing just such a unit for our kitchen- a 19C French "doughbox", as used to make bread. The oak carcase is original, but the 'counter-top' or 'lid' for kneading is long gone. We thought of putting new 2.5" thick Alder 'lids' on as I have some huge 20 year old air dried boards, as a pair of sliding countertops on ball-bearing runners, to use the space in the box. It won't be nailed down, as the floor is ceramic tiled and it weights a ton anyway.


Wood work but can't!
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IMO, Alan, if it can be moved - even if that takes three men, a boy, and a dog - it's not part of the house, just furniture.

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Originally Posted by George Little
That's why us inspectors make the big bucks. :)))
I would approve the receptacles if they were mounted beneath the countertop as suitable for double duty. As long as they were near the front of the edge and could be reached by the 24" cords of the appliances. And Greg would also (I think)



How about 210.52(C)(5) exception?
"...Shall not be located where the counter top extends more than 150 mm (6")beyond its support base."

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