ECN Electrical Forum
Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals

The committee has asserted that AFCI devices (not breakers) are readily available, and that 2-pole combination AFCI breakers will be available if the market demands them.

So, I put out this call:

1) Anyone with an actual picture of an AFCI device - NOT something cropped from a 10 yr. old catalog - please provide a picture of the device; and,

2) Anyone with substantiation that, for whatever reason, 'combination' AFCI breakers can NOT be made in a 2-pole version, please post that information.

Thanks.

I saw an ad/press release that Siemen's (I think) has a 2-pole available now. Weather it's on the shelf apply house is another matter.

The mysterious AFCI 'device' may be akin to the Loch Ness monster, or the tooth fairy.

In the words of the Christmas Dragnet distorted with my aging memory.

"I believe! I believe!"

"What about the Easter Bunny?"

"Yeah, him to. Though I'm still not sure about Cincinati."

I havent checked the links in this thread yet.
http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/187383/AFCI_breakers#Post187383

Doug:
That's it.
Thanks for the link.

OK ... so here is where it seems to stand:

There DO exist 'combination' 2-pole AFCI's, at least from two makers. Square D seems intent on discouraging the use of all MWBC's. I'm beginning to see where some of the recent code changed relating to MWBC's comes from.

That leaves the elusive AFCI device. Anyone have a picture of one?

Reno:
"That leaves the elusive AFCI device. Anyone have a picture of one?"

Popular consensus is that there is no such animal, yet!

BTW, my thought to to the 'metalic raceway xx feet to an AFCI could be interperted as within a structure that has an obsolete panel, a subpanel could be installed...with a metalic raceway of xx feet. That would kind of make sense of this NEC reference.

John,


I have a picture of the AFCI device. It is in the computer next to the picture of that old Jersey Devil that we have heard about. I will find it . ( someday)

After sending the 2 pole combination link from Siemens web page to my wholesaler (GE distributor) he started beating the bushes and came back assuring me that GE had them in the works. I won't be pulling any multiwire homeruns to the bedrooms until I have one in my hand though.

I wouldn't install one I had to warranty until they were in the field for a while. Remember the SqD fiasco.

Bringing life back to this thread .... it appears -I haven't read the 2011 yet- that they'll want AFCI's added if you do ANY work on an existing circuit.

With the very large numbers of fuse boxes, FPE, Zinsco, and XO panels still in use, there's no easy way to add an AFCI - unless AFCI devices really do become available.

To be fair, we encounter the same issue when the homeowner wants 3-prong receptcles in his K&T house; where does the GFCI go? At least we can use a device (which is harder than it sounds because of short wires and smaller boxes) - which beats a complete service change and re-wire any day.

I suppose you can still mount a small sub panel to feed a circuit that requires AFCI. That will certainly add some money to that simple "add a receptacle" call.
In my opinion it only encourages unlicensed.unpermitted work but I suppose you can say that about most code changes that require additional equipment.

Im with Reno on this one. Adding a duples recept shouldn't require a service upgrade. Its a hard sell to tell them you will charge them $80-$100 an hour just by being there and, "You telling me I need a sub panel for a receptacle to plug my foot massager in? screw that, I'll can get an extension cord for lot less money"

As for the smaller box comment for the GFCI Reno, just do what I do. square up the GFCI to the box and palm it really hard and quick. It will go in. It it breaks, it was ment to be repaired any ways

Eaton/CutlerHammer CH220AFIT and CH215AFIT are 2 pole independent trip AFCI's that will work in a MWBC.

Reno:
Here in Nj (as it now stands) we use the '08 NEC with some amendments, HOWEVER...the '05 (as amended) is 'the rule' for any rehab work. AFCI is not required for service change, panel change, or work within an existing structure. AFCI is required in new construction, and any additions. "Addition" is defined as an increase in volume. An exception to this is IF existing circuits are 'extended' into the addition area.

After you digest the above....

Soon (not my word) the State will update the Rehab portion of the UCC, and rumors abound that the AFCI requirements will be modified to include 'new work'.

Now that I probably added to everyones confusion...I have to go back out in the rain