ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area DYI Advice

Zapped:



I saw that same episode!!! Bitched endlessly through the entire Show, angering my Wife in the process (I really know how to pick my battles, huh??? )

Reno:



In this situation, I would suggest to propose the installation as fit - according to some form of Load Schedule (Panel Schedule, Load calc, etc.), which outlines the coincidental loads on a given circuit.

For an actual scenario to demonstrate to the Client as proof of what an overloaded circuit would be, plug in 3 Hair Dryers to a Plug Strip, run them all at high setting, and wait for the trip.

Suggest to place the Cash Register on its own Designated Circuit. Nothing sucks worse for any Business, than when the P.O.S. (Point Of Sales) is down!!!

The Dryers may be across 2, 3 or if necessary 6 Circuits; depends on the diversity of use.

As to the Curling Irons, these do not draw very much Power. My Wife's is rated at 80 Watts, however the Dryer is rated for 1800 Watts at maximum setting.

As mentioned, I believe your case demonstrates that the GC is less competent in Electrical Systems' design, and your experiences + understanding of potential risk factors supersedes the GC's Design base concepts, therefore the Client's best choice would be to accept your proposed installation, with little to no haggling.

< Enter Reality >

If we lived in a Perfect World, the above would be a default method of Proposals.

Unfortunately, when (or if) the GC presents the Proposal to the Client, there will - by Default - be price negotiations.
So the GC contacts you, requesting a more competitive bid.

BTW, the "or if" statement above refers to the GC compiling their Proposal using your bid without addendum for only one circuit to the P.O.S., 6 Dryers and 4 Curling Irons.

As to the OP / topic of this thread; the BBS discussion thread referenced at the DIY site sure has a lot of pseudo-science thrown around (read: Bandini Tech.).

I was wondering where the main Manure pile originated; the source of Bandini Tech. of which many DIY's have been submitted to + believe as fact, and now it appears we have stumbled across the unholy leaking vessel!

Anyhow, thanks for the link + laughs.

Scott

The salt from sweat builds up in the hot tub.

The off-the-shelf quasi-portable hot tub violently pumps this ionized fluid all too close to the motor pump fields.

Any time you have charges forced through a magnetic field you'll get energy transfer.

This particular effect is known as capacitive coupling though if I were to name it I'd call it something like the Hall effect.

If you get the installation instructions for the hot tub they are very specific that the GFCI must be a fully grounded one, not merely a fix for a two wire circuit.

For the particular hot tub I worked with, I had to run a separate grounding conductor back and bond it to their continuously exposed copper main water supply which in turn was bonded to the GEC. Immediately after that the water voltage went to zero.

Greg is witnessing the same phenomenon with his 'stray' voltage. It must be bled off. Further efforts to isolate and insulate will merely permit the voltage to jack up to astounding thresholds.

What you are witnessing is a secondarily derived power supply right into the bath of slightly salty water.

This aspect of hot tubs is not well explained in the customer literature but should be. At some point someone is going to get hurt and lawsuits will flow.

Normally a 680 compliant hut tub will have enough grounded and bonded metal in contact with the water to bleed off this charge but there is nothing to prevent voltage gradients between the tub and a concrete pad if it is not bonded.

well the problem is, we aren't called when that concrete is poured.....~S~

The inspector in me says "gee that's too bad"
That is still not a compliant install (2005 and beyond).

The reality is there are deck kits that will give you 3' of insulated deck around the tub if you can't create an equipotential plane around it.

I love that show Renovation Realities! I use to watch it every Sun. night. I don't think that it is on anymore.


Greg,

I have seen those insulated running mats for around the hot tub. They don't look too bad, but you have to wonder how long are they around for after the AHJ leaves?

.. About as long as the door alarm or the smoke alarm on the peak of that cathedral ceiling after the battery dies

Actually I was thinking about a Trex deck that circles the spa at rim height and give the people a place to sit on the edge.

I still want a man cave. I will do the electrical myself or watch them the whole time.

Zapped...

Hollywood never shows a technically effective way to commit a crime.

A script writer is required to conjure up a plot that suspends disbelief for the average viewer. Only occasionally will it intersect with reality.

My Uncle was a District Attorney. He's not allowed to watch any crime or legal dramas. The rest of the family cannot put up with his vocal scorn and abuse of the shows.

As for unreality: the next time you watch the shower scene in Psycho look up for the fire sprinkler head over the tub!
Try and find a 1950's strip motel with a fire surpression system!

And think of all of the Hollywood elevator cabins that have hatches to the topside! Any such hatch is code prohibited. They never exist anywhere except in the Hollywood imagination.

It's all mind candy, so I go with the flow and turn off my brain.

I have seen lots of elevators with a hatch in the ceiling.

The reality is you can usually just push the door open and the latch on the building side is easy to trip from the car side.
Just don't linger in the door as you are getting out. If it starts moving out will kill you.