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Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
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Ski Bunnyville? You're making that claim to ME ... who has but one big rock between himself, and Lake Tahoe? laugh

Perhaps that economic bar you mention is what inspired this thread. As I had mentioned, we don't see many old places being replaced. The cummulative effect of the code changes seems to be to make the jump - from 'old' to new' - ever higher, a leap fewer can manage each year.

Just to take the one example of a 'safety improvement' that seems most justified: the GFCI.
In my house, the only bath receptacle is in the base of the sink light. Even if they made sink lights with GFCI's built into them, such would not meet the code requirement for a bath-only 20 amp circuit.
IF there had been a receptacle in the bath, a GFCI device would not fit in the box.
Going to the fuse box, well, there are no GFCI fuses.

So, in order to get a code-compliant GFCI in the bathroom, we're looking at a $2000 job: service change and new circuit. With fire-blocking at 4 ft. and 8 ft., putting that receptacle at counter height is going to be a challenge.

Let's jump to the 2008 edition, and decide to add AFCI protection. Since the house was originally wired with all the lights and receptacles on a single multi-wire branch circuit ..... and there are neither AFCI devices, nor two-pole AFCI breakers (anymore) ..... you're looking at a complete rewire, including the removal / replacement of a section of the outside asbestos-cement siding.

While we're at it, let's add the 2008 required phone jack - even though I had my phone 'land line' discontinued in 2005 laugh

Another challenge is complying with the 1996 edition's requirement for a 'laundry outlet.' Apart for there not being space within the building for even a stack unit, we run up against the plumbing code. That is, this place was built with a 1-1/2" drain line; the plumbing code specifies a minimum 2" drain for a washer. As a result, you're talking about digging up the parking area, re-plumbing to the city sewer, and repaving after. That is a mighty expensive receptacle!

Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Joined: Oct 2000
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renosteinke

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Ski Bunnyville? You're making that claim to ME ... who has but one big rock between himself, and Lake Tahoe? laugh


eastern ski bunny's Reno, that 25 letter alphabet's about the only notable dif "paaak the caaaa in the haaaaavaaad yaaaaad..."

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Perhaps that economic bar you mention is what inspired this thread. As I had mentioned, we don't see many old places being replaced. The cummulative effect of the code changes seems to be to make the jump - from 'old' to new' - ever higher, a leap fewer can manage each year.

well yes, it's economics, but there's also the mysterious demon thing we do that people don't pay any mind to, i.e.- it works or it doesn't, they call us when it doesn't.

So while there's a pile of kitchen and bathroom bucks being doled out for them to be done over, we have to sell the service upgrades that aren't as pretty

i really want to come back in my next life as a tile guy yanno, they get all the glory for a bathroom floor/shower, while we gotta argue about proper circuitry.....

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Just to take the one example of a 'safety improvement' that seems most justified: the GFCI.
In my house, the only bath receptacle is in the base of the sink light. Even if they made sink lights with GFCI's built into them, such would not meet the code requirement for a bath-only 20 amp circuit.
IF there had been a receptacle in the bath, a GFCI device would not fit in the box.
Going to the fuse box, well, there are no GFCI fuses.

and the doc's kids are sick, the plumbers toliet leaks, etc...i guess there's a bright side in that you could hold apprenticeship class in your home Reno.

but i'm no one to talk, i live in a 1/2 built house now, violated every know building code to man , no CO's here....

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So, in order to get a code-compliant GFCI in the bathroom, we're looking at a $2000 job: service change and new circuit. With fire-blocking at 4 ft. and 8 ft., putting that receptacle at counter height is going to be a challenge.


how many times have we tried to sell this out there, and been shown the door .....

Quote
Let's jump to the 2008 edition, and decide to add AFCI protection. Since the house was originally wired with all the lights and receptacles on a single multi-wire branch circuit ..... and there are neither AFCI devices, nor two-pole AFCI breakers (anymore) ..... you're looking at a complete rewire, including the removal / replacement of a section of the outside asbestos-cement siding.


asbestos= moon suit level 3 double overtime hazmat response !!!

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While we're at it, let's add the 2008 required phone jack - even though I had my phone 'land line' discontinued in 2005 laugh

so much for whine-11......


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Another challenge is complying with the 1996 edition's requirement for a 'laundry outlet.' Apart for there not being space within the building for even a stack unit, we run up against the plumbing code. That is, this place was built with a 1-1/2" drain line; the plumbing code specifies a minimum 2" drain for a washer. As a result, you're talking about digging up the parking area, re-plumbing to the city sewer, and repaving after. That is a mighty expensive receptacle!


excellent economic snowball Reno

but that's how the world works these days, and hey, just got off a job where the state fire marshal had the potential new biz owner (and my potential meal ticket for next week) in a verbal headlock via this same scenario

sometimes all one can do is cheer from the sidelines....

~S~

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,498
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Some codes are clearly not giving any safety improvements.
Austria (and particularly Vienna) introduced a standardized key system for electrical and gas service equipment in the 1950s. Later on, it was used more and more used for meter boxes and panel doors, meaning it was sold to the general public.
In the late 1990s a new system was introduced for main fuse boxes where ordinary people just don't have any reason to mess with. Fine with me. The older system continued to be used for the meter cabinets (if they were in public areas of multifamily buildings) and pre-meter fuse boxes. That means, that legally everybody needs to have a key in order to be able to read the meter and change fuses if necessary.

Effective 1/1/09 the power company introduced a whole new key system, horrendously expensive with magnetic keyed locks and everything. These locks and keys are only sold by the state electrical safety board, and every tenant needs his/her own personally registered key that only fits the own fuse boxes/meter cabinets, not the neighbor's. The only minor improvement: people can't go around randomly unscrewing fuses. Now I've never heard of that happening. However, the safety board now got a very nice new income source... the old keys and locks were sold by every locksmith.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,213
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Originally Posted by renosteinke
For example ....
My home was built in 1940. One could argue that it can't be TOO electrically deficient, having worked for this long.
That land mine buried in your front yard isn't dangerous, either. I mean, you still haven't stepped on it, so how dangerous can it be? - complacance is a very dangerous thing. Especially in our line of work.

It ends up being a balance between risk and cost. How much are we willing to spend, (measured in both money and time/invoncenence) to save a human life? To you and I, this is an impossible equation. Not so to the insurance companies! They have no problem assigning dollar figures based on what the loss of a life has cost them. The safety requirements we see largely reflects this. NFPA has really never cared much about the financial impact, either. If they see that a life can be saved, they're going to codify it.

Joined: Jul 2004
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G
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Not to be pedantic but nobody has ever saved a life, they only postponed a death. Then the question becomes, at what cost and shouldn't we have a choice?


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 73
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As I am in the regulatory field (not electrical, but in ‘Codes and Regulations’) this is a subject that comes up frequently: how much is ‘too much’ regulation without creating undue expense and complexity with little, if any, improvement in safety? A cost benefit analysis is usually done when making this determination and each person has their own opinion of what ‘costs too much.” Consider the GFCI. It was unavailable in any form until the late 60’s and wasn’t adopted as a requirement until (I believe) the 1990’s. It has gradually been required for more and more applications, but is it worth it?

Even prior to the GFCI’s requirement, rates of electrocution deaths were quite low, given the population of persons potentially exposed to shock hazards in wet areas. Undoubtedly, GFCI’s have lowered the rate and total number of deaths, but that number was already very small to begin with. Why require them, then? If tens of millions of persons are exposed to a wet area shock hazard annually and 1000 die, and if GFCI use cuts the rate to 100, that is still a small improvement. Vanishingly small. Placing a burden on everyone to install these expensive devices for such a small improvement seems unnecessary, from that perspective.

But, of course, who wants a bathroom/outdoor outlet without GFCI protection? Not me. And not you either, I bet. It is a requirement because it works, it isn’t that expensive and because it does save lives: Lives of children, lives of persons who are exposed (through no fault of their own) to shoddy electrical installations and, yes, it protects those who are stupid or foolhardy.

Other devices, like tamper resistant receptacles seem to me to be no-brainers as a requirement. They are relatively cheap (particularly when mass produced) and they do work to prevent children from poking wires in outlets. Sure, why not? The technology is there, they aren’t that pricey, and they work.

AFCI’s, ironically, are probably least needed in the applications they are required for: new construction. Most arc fault fires I hear of are in old installations where the wiring is frayed or damaged. It is almost unheard of for a new house to have an arc fault fire (or so I have been told). If anything, they should be required for replacement of existing breakers in old systems.

In my jurisdiction, we still use the 2005 NEC and I doubt we’ll adopt the 2008 in its entirety. In terms of “freedom to choose” that is still the prerogative of the local jurisdiction, after all. They can, and do, cherry pick the code changes they wish to adopt for their jurisdiction.

Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
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Steve, that's sort of where I was leading with this thread ....

"If it saves even one life .... " is how the discussion starts; yet such is false logic.

The argument is faulty, as it assumes a static situation. What it does not consider is how increased expenses deter any attempt to improve things. A person might have the means for a $20 improvement, but not for a $200 one - so nothing gets done.

For example, I spoke to a man today. He wanted everything "brought up to code" in a 1961-built house he had just bought. Well, some recent changes in the NEC, combined with a few PoCo issues, mean that the required service change is going to be expensive. As a result, I seriously doubt it will ever happen. The end result? Future tenants will continue to use ungrounded circuits, and the guy will 'handyman' in things to 'just get by.'

The end result will be less safety, not more. Perhaps the question we need to ask is "how manylives with the proposed change cause to be lost, by deterring any attempts to improve things?"

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,392
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some great posts here fellas.

myself i would say beauracracy is a double edged sword.

too much of it, and nothing really moves within an economy, too little and it's simply anarchy

adding in the cost of the risk/benifit ratio in the creation of a safe enviroment isn't easy because (as some of you have already alluded to) it's not easily quantifiable

most of us have been around enough to see the evolution of the nec, it's enforcement, and what falls through the cracks.

Well, quite frankly we might aspire to keep up with the code, but the public usually isn't as excited as we may be about it, so i don't see sales in items like tamperproof receptacles being the next rage in better homes and gardens

conversely....i get the same 'is it safe' question , as well as the 'brought up to code' qeuries as much as the rest of you

to me, safety is a relative term, in that no one lives (or would want to) in a bubble

and so my usual speel is to address things that have the most potential for a hazard first, and i'll forward a whole menu to choose from to the consumer to make the choices him/herself

i'm sure any of you could do the same, and most likely do when your the ahj

i could ride you through my own town and tell you how many public buildings lack basic life safety, and many still have the old wadswoth main range & four fuse setup w/K&T

i could show you grange halls with K&T that runs from rosette to rosette , ending in one that an entire band plugs into every saturday night (those green colored fuses, eh!)

there are a number of meters in town hanging by their service entrance cables

i get calls like the rest of you re: "should my panel sound like bacon"?

there are farms here who's milk rooms look like a gang of angry spiders wired the milking machines

i went to one sugarhouse which had no-blow fuses for mains, 1/2" copper pipe pieces (anothe M,R&4)

the list is endless, I (and i would think this could easily be a WE) make concessions for these situations because we know we can make it a tad better, than claiming it all or nothing......

~S~








Joined: Mar 2009
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I would make the distinction between what is code required for new construction vs. what it would take to bring an old building 'up to code.' New construction is pretty straight-forward. Here is the standard, meet it. In the circumstance of the property owner who wanted the house he just bought 'brought up to code' that is sort of his choice. At least here in Louisville, if your installation met the code at the time it was constructed, then you are 'compliant.' If you choose to upgrade, then you can pick and choose what and how much you want to upgrade. The simplest example would be upgrading to GFCI in the bathroom or kitchen. It can be as simple as just replacing the receptacle (which doesn't even require a permit here) and your system is much more compliant than it was before.

Ironically, many of the expensive upgrades we see come through, at least for single-family residential, are mandated by the buyers insurance company, not us. A system may be compliant as far as we are concerned, but if a home inspection reveals potentially hazardous conditions, the insurance company may require an upgrade. An example of this, in my own experience, was an insurance rider that required an old split buss panel be replaced (circa 1977 vintage) with a new service panel. Why? No main disconnect, plus the breakers themselves were old and in poor condition. As far as Metro was concerned, if there is no hazard, the installation is fine, no matter how old. The insurance company had, well, other ideas. smile

In new construction, the upfront costs for AFCI, tamper resistant outlets, etc, seem to be rather modest as a percentage of the total cost of the home, but that's debatable I guess. Depends a lot on the price of the home.

Personally, if I bought a house that I wanted brought "up to code" I would want it solidly grounded, a good modern service panel, inspected for potential arc faults/leaks to ground and maybe an AFCI for the bedrooms anyway. I would want GFCI for the bathrooms, kitchen, etc, and a GFCI outlet on the front and rear of the house outside. I really doubt that this would cost all that much.

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 853
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Man! what a good read.
My (what I thought was an opinion)Has gone back and forth 2-3 times now.
All very good points and insight.
Unfortunately now, I'm not quite sure where my thoughts fall.

For me,I'm usually pretty stead fast on where I stand!

However I will and do make all as safe as I can at any opportunity.If that requires a safe but true violation of 'code', I have a conscience,That is my ultimate rule book.

(our little secret,right?)

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