ECN Electrical Forum
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OK, here's the situation.
Replaced a subpanel at a friends auto shop.
Commercial location, 6 seperate shops (only one is his)
6 meter stack with all the main breakers about 50 ft to the front of the building.
Each shop has it's own 150amp sub.

Well, my friend had his yearly fire inspection, and the fire inspector told the electrical inspector that the shop had a new panel.
Electrical inspector shows up, and wants a permit pulled.

I replaced a 20 space main lug panel with another 20 space main lug panel.

IMO, this falls under repair. According to the Uniform building code repair is defined as replacing a like item with a like item.

Of course i could pull the permits, but after speaking with people during my continued education (uniform building code), i should not have to.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Joe

Check your General laws regarding electrical wiring regulations.

In Ma, We MUST pull a permit. Even for the simplest of tasks.

"Any person installing for hire electrical wiring... Shall notify the inspector of wires 'In writing'...."

Joe:
Whoever told you that a permit is 'not required' for a panel change is incorrect!

Refer to the UCC (5:23-2.7- (c)3.i;ii;iii;iv; for items that are considered 'ordinary repairs' within the Electrical Sub-Code (5:23-3.16)

Keep in mind that what you hear from other people can sometimes be incorrect, as the UCC book is not something that many EC's have/own.

You can check the section I quoted above on-line thru the DCA portal website. (It's boring reading, as it's Law)

Remember, NJ AHJ's will quote you the Article that they are referencing, if you ask.

Joe:
Here's the location for DCA:

http://www.nj.gov/dca/codes/

Follow down to the center of the page & click on 'Minor Work'...go the Electrical, (Pg 4). those are the only items that a permit is not required for.

HotLine ... that is an interesting link. I note that replacing an oven, stove, or dryer receptacle requires a permit .... yet replacing a hard-wired appliance does not!

Indeed, the 'other trades' have quite detailed lists of what they can do without a permit, while the electrical exemptions are quite limited.

Reno:
Thanks! As I said, many EC's don't have a grip on the UCC. Now that it's available on-line.....maybe more will check it out.

Interesting read, thanks.
In 23 years I have never referd to anything except my State codes,I have never been referd to any other codes. Perhaps this is because of stringent State codes.
Never even had an inspector refer to any of the standards I read about here, Except The NFPA stuff (thats not amended).

Leland:
You are not alone! As I said above many, many NJ EC's are unaware of the UCC regs. There are also amendments to the NEC that are part of 5:23-3.16 (Electrical Sub-Code), one of which has kept the dreaded AFCI's away.

It's not 'interesting reading', as it's Law, written by lawyers, of which we may hold a record!

Stay safe

Do I read that correctly, that replacing even a single breaker would require a permit?

If so ... isn't that over-reaching a bit?

Hotline, thanks for the links. Pretty much gives me the answers i need.
Looks as if it's written in a manner that pretty much suggests you get a permit for damn near everything other than replacing a bad receptacle. Guess that's how they cover their butts.

Reno, if i'm interpreting it correctly (and i may not be), you could replace up to a single pole 20amp breaker.
This way the amps is 20 or less and the volts are less than 150.

In my locality, yes. The city inspections department here actually has a convenient list saying specifically what does and doesn't need a permit. I can't find it online at the moment, but they've got a whole stack of 'em at the inspections department. (We have similar lists for structural, plumbing, etc., too.)

They will let you replace a receptacle 1:1 and replace a light fixture without a permit, but pretty much everything else electrical requires a permit and an inspection- adding a new circuit breaker certainly applies. And replacing an entire panel without a permit will land you a hefty fine!

I don't think it's overreaching at all- screwing up a single circuit is still dangerous.

If the law is overly restrictive then you just get lawbreaking en masse. You have to have laws that are practical and enforceable. How could you ever enforce a CB replacement law. Society just ends up figuring which laws to break and then does not worry about breaking other laws either. Its petty and teaches contempt for law.

This sounds more like a tax than a safety measure.
Do they actually come out and inspect this new breaker or do you just send them a check?

I have to fess up & admit this:

I have not seen any permits for replacement of a cb. And, honestly, I never gave it any thought until I'm reading this thread.

We have treated a replacement cb (like for like) as a repair. I'm not aware of any area that is requiring a permit, and I'll kick this around with other AHJ's at the next meeting.

Would I fine anyone for doing it? NO!

As to the panel change (no permit), if it's a first offense, a 'go get a permit' verbal. Second time would be a different story. And so on....

BTW, fines can range up to $2000.

Wed/Thurs nite I'm going over the highlights of the UCC, and whatelse other then the NEC is the EC's responsibilities. (My NEC Code class at Vo-Tech)

I'm surprised at the response to this thread

Look at it this way ... as I read the list, for rules to be complied with, EVERY service electrician would need to cart an inspector along with him, in order to have each job permitted / inspected as the work presents itself.

For example ... to cite one service call I had ... the plumber called me in on a water heater problem. It turned out that the wire insulation had been damaged during the pull, and was shorting out againse an LB. All I needed to do was replace the damaged wire with new.

Yet, this work would clearly require a permit and inspection under those rules. That sounds unreasonable to me.

Let us stay in perspective:
No particular order (we are dealing with government after all..That's another perspective.)

A panel change, Yes a permit is required. many things could be changed and or omitted.

Breaker change, C'mon, the inspector would fine you just for the aggravation.
Permits in general are basically "revenue enhancement" They do admittedly serve a serious purpose.

More laws yes, creates more scofflaws.
just look at Insurance,they practically encourage fraud (that's another topic for later).

Quick story of last year:

A mans Mother died. He wanted to rent the house. Redid the bathroom and Kitchen.
FIXTURES ONLY. Placed them on the curb (standard trash pick up,not the issue).
The Town put a 'Stop work" order on his door.
To replace a toilet,Kitchen sink and stove!!

Yup! That's what we're dealing with here.
The tighter the budget gets the worse it gets.
I made some money so I'm happy. Also did some unregistered Plumbing work. Gained a customer etc.

I check the local board of registration here, A Bunch of people every month getting suspended for 'No Permit',Failing to list the name properly (IE: Journeyman must be listed-- Joe.P.Public Electrician.Lic # etc.
Master lic: WXYZ. Electric. Lic #.

I'll stop now. I'll be back with a story from TODAY. (RE-Permits)

Thanx for your time.

Reno:
LMAO! THe Twp I work in is 32 sq miles, 105k pop., and has everything from a major mall, to two major office/dist/whse complexes, resi/comm, chemicals, hospital, etc.

Two (2) elec insp; 2 plumb insp; 1 fire; 3 building insp; 1 construction official; 1-CCO insp; and 3 office girls.

IF it were a perfect world.....a inspector/clerk for each service sparkie? Perhaps, but our world is far from perfect; you know where I'm going.

Permit follow up:
We are a sub to a (sprinkler) contractor. "Parts and smarts", We supply and start up the system. all other aspects are by 'OTHERS'(sprinkler subs).

Today,Private school, 2 buildings. Appearance is a lot like a 60K sq' house.

The wiring inspector comes thru for a walk thru,(still under construction) and notices the contractors sub installing a small control panel for a suppression system. This room is 9' X 9'.

Then asks where is the permit? So to the inspectors credit,He was on top of the project.

All fire permits were in place, Just no Electrical.

System consists of:

Fire panel on outside wall, poke thru to a Manual-release and an abort button. 1- Horn strobe in the room,discharge strobe above panel and the actuation device for the tank.

Total install time (mechanical,electrical and start up test) 9 Hrs.

So,They went down town and got the $75. electrical permit.

Funny that Lee,
Over here (I'm an ex Fire Safety Officer (think Fire Marshall)), that would not fly at all, a fire alarm panel must be on the inside of the building that it protects, with a window of 3' x 1' showing that panel to the fire brigade before they make access and in what area the sensor has tripped, in a multi-storey building where multiple fire appliances are turning out, this can mean the difference between getting to the next call on time (which could be a hospital)
A real difference in Codes, but at the end of the day, it has to come down to how quick fire crews can ascertain exactly where the fire is.

Here in Chicago, the fire alarm panel gets mounted inside the building, within 25' of the door that the fire brigade will enter.
That always causes whining from the Architects who want the Lobby to be perfectly gorgeous, but the fire brigade ALWAYS has the last word.
After all, how happy would you be if you died in a fire in a pretty building? I'd rather get found in time to be rescued inside a building with "one of those ugly red boxes in the Lobby".
If the fire brigade's not happy with the building, they won't sign off on the Certificate of Occupancy...and NOBODY can be inside the building.
Period.
End of sentence.

Ya gotta love anyone who runs into a burning building when everyone else is running out of it.

Found my local city's "When is an inspection required?" Permit Guide"
http://www.cityofchesapeake.net/services/depart/neighborhood/inspect/handouts/homeowner-guide.pdf

E for electrical permit / N for none required:

Mike, I think you may have misunderstood.

This system is not the primary Life safety. Globally I think we are on the same page with those.

It is a fire suppression system for an IT data room.
The panel is outside the protected room (per code).
This 9'X9' room has used maybe....50' of wire. COMPLETE!

Any way, The Inspector new his job. Rightfully called it.
But, still revenue Enhancement.

Keep in mind that the permit fees cover all the expenses of the code enforcement dept. Any 'excess' goes to the twp general fund.

Again, that's the scenario in a perfect world.

There have been a few local instances of financial disasters, but that's another story.