ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade General Discussion Area Arc Fault Breakers

AFCIs are devices that purport to detect arcs and shut down the circuit. They often get compared to GFCIs (RCD for you folks) when people resist the change. The major difference is that ground fault devices are designed to a definite standard. A certain leakage will trip them. On the other hand AFCIs do not have any standard for what an arc really is and use proprietary methodologies to identify arcs. Something that will trip one brand may not be detected by another brand and there is no universal testing method. Even if the manufacturer was selling a tester for their device, it would really just be testing their method of detecting arcs, not whether another arcing situation would be detected.

A very good point, Alan.

It is claimed that new technology is capable of identifyiny whether electricity is being used to, say, run a motor, or to make an arc.

It was posited that many electrical fires start when a wire is xomehow damaged - leading either to an ard between two different wires (parallel arc) or between halves of a broken wire (series arc).

Therefore, in 1995 a campaign was started to require the use of this new technology in our homes. We call this "AFCI protection," or 'arc fault circuit interrupter protection.'

Mind you, this is different from the principles used by RCD, GFI, overcurrent, and overload protection. Currently, it is available only as part of a circuit breaker.

The entire subject is still a matter of contention; the devices and code requirements have both had major revisions.

When troubleshooting this and other AFCI circuits I have removed a wire nut with a load, and have drawn a visible audible arc with out tripping the breaker. GE Breaker.
If I still smoked I'd light a cig. with it.

What happens in the case of a machine which runs an arc as part of its design, such as burner ignition electrodes or an arc welder?

Alan, I really wish I could answer your question .... it's certainly a fair one. There are also a number of other things I'd like to try; say, a Jacobs' ladder, put a carbon electrode on a track and make a solid line-power arc, a motor with brushes, etc. Even a variac. I'd also like to set up a number of dimmers (and other electronic controls) that seem to be associated with troubleshooting problems.

I'd love to be able to create a variety of arcs, both 'series' and 'parallel,' just to see what arcs, if any, are actually detected by the infernal devices.

Alas, I lack the resources. I have a sneaking suspicion, though, that such a demonstration would make waves at the local inspectors' meeting - especially when the AFCI rep comes around for his tri-annual sales pitch.

one could have broken the hot on plate steel and welded one's name with the first generation of afci's Reno...

they did get better with the 2nd generation, but they are still an inexact science as far as parameters go

and we are, imho, not a trade that really tolerates that well

nor would any business get far selling a product on nefarious definitions

quick q here, how many of you are stuffing panels, i mean the majority of breakers afci's out there?

it's common for me pack 30 into a 40 cir panel

that's $1200 (my cost) of afci's

now, what i want to know here, and i want to ask it of the EC's out there having to sell this is,

exactly what are you telling your customers who your informing of this cost?

and please don't fall back and hide behind the old 'it's the code' answer

customers don't buy blind authority any more than we do...

~S~

sparky:
AFCI's are now required here, guess you could say 'finally', and they will start showing up as the permits approved after 10/06/09 are built.

The rest of the country where they have been required, with the postings & comments here are preparing me for the arrival!

As to 'explanations', I have to use the old 'it's the new code'; and 'it's a device similar to the GFCI/GFI intended to improve your safety'; 'research is available on the web from various organizations and mfgs explaining the technology'....etc.

The wider scale installs will be here, but I can't say I'm looking for it with great anticipation.

i usually hand them the paperwork with a similar line HotOne. it occured to me that, if an inspector can ask me to validate any given electrical widget toward an application, why can't the public ask the creators?

the downside, of course, is if they are able to digest all the techno babble.

i say lay it on the manufacturer's , THEY , need to bear the onus of responsibility validating their majic bullet, not us the EC's out there

~S~

Just a general note .. I think this thread has drifted a bit, and we need to get back on-track.

The OP was a request for stories regarding problems with AFCI's.

When folks from outside the USA asked just what we were talking about, I did my best to explain, in simple terms, what AFCI's are maent to accomplish.

Please, let's keep the discussion on-target. We have had many threads discussing the entire issue - it certainly has been a controversial one - and everyone ought to know that I have some pretty strong opinions on the topic. I have not shared them in this thread, as they were not relevant to the OP.

If you want to discuss the various twists and turns in the AFCI story, please start a new thread. If you want to discuss the 'political' aspects, or allege misrepresentation by the prompters, that's another topic for another thread.

As for the actual field performance of AFCI's: There have been all manner of assertions that certain appliances or devices are incompatable with AFCI's. This is countered by NEMA asserting that they have not received any such complaints at all, that every 'problem' has been traced to faulting wiring practices. The OP has asked us to provide such stories.

Where have you had trouble with AFCI's?

We will be adopting the 08' at the years end. Has there been a certain brand AFCI that is less susceptable to problematic tripping from peoples experiences?