ECN Electrical Forum - Discussion Forums for Electricians, Inspectors and Related Professionals
ECN Shout Chat
ShoutChat
Recent Posts
Increasing demand factors in residential
by gfretwell - 03/28/24 12:43 AM
Portable generator question
by Steve Miller - 03/19/24 08:50 PM
Do we need grounding?
by NORCAL - 03/19/24 05:11 PM
240V only in a home and NEC?
by dsk - 03/19/24 06:33 AM
Cordless Tools: The Obvious Question
by renosteinke - 03/14/24 08:05 PM
New in the Gallery:
This is a new one
This is a new one
by timmp, September 24
Few pics I found
Few pics I found
by timmp, August 15
Who's Online Now
1 members (gfretwell), 32 guests, and 14 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 32
G
Member
If you are just going for a wirenut (Marrette) why not just use Ideal 65s


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,445
Likes: 2
Cat Servant
Member
Greg, my objection to the Ideal 65's is that, according to the fine print in the instructions, they are not intended for permanent repairs. There is also the cost factor. The King connectors - which, btw, I ordered today - are smaller, and lacking in that capsule of goop.

For that matter, the T&B product .... which I just learned I CAN get .... are 'simple' wire nuts as well, no larger than an ordinary wire nut, and also lacking in the magic goop. It turns out that they are CSA approved, but not UL Listed. Good enough for me!

When I spoke to Leviton, they took great pains to point out that they did not have any GFCI's or AFCI's rated for use with aluminum wire. I found it interesting that they should bring up AFCI's.

IMO, jobs like this one simply scream for AFCI protection - and through the use of a device, not a breaker. It's getting harder each day to listen to the manufacturers' claims (regarding their concern for safety) and keep a straight face.
Simply put ... for all the concern over fires caused by arcing at the devices, they (both code panel and manufacturers) have managed to fail to address the biggest source of such problems: aluminum wire.
Folks, such wiring is simply not going to just disappear. That's reality. IMO, by now (30 years after the heyday of aluminum wire) EVERY device made ought to be able to accept aluminum wire. New technologies - AFCI, GFCI, surge suppression, whatever ... ought to also be able to accept aluminum wire. Double for hard-wired smoke alarms.

Sneer all you want .... but, if this slumlord is going to insist upon continuing to rent this rolling slum, then it is up to me to make damn sure that the poor unfortunates don't get cooked, smoked, or zapped.


Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 32
G
Member
I can't imagine why a clamp plate style termination wouldn't be OK for aluminum but I doubt any of the manufacturers want to go to the expense of getting them listed, just to open up the can of worms Ideal got into with the 65.

BTW until the AFCIs that can detect series arcs get into the field, they won't address the aluminum problem.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,445
Likes: 2
Cat Servant
Member
I promise not to re-open the whole AFCI soap opera laugh

You may be correct ... At least here, with our minimal humidity, nearly every non-approved device I removed looks just fine. Nearly all are old enough to possible be original (70's) devices.

I sure am glad I have the aluminum rep at every IAEI meeting, to assure me that there's absolutely nothing wrong with aluminum wire. frown

Of greater concern is that many of the undersized ground wires (conductors are #12, grounds are smaller, maybe #16 aluminum) are broken at the crimp .... making it difficult for me to attach them to the receptacles. Yet ANOTHER reason to GFI the place.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 11
M
Member
We have run into this problem in several of our properties (1,000's of units). There is no GFCi for AL. We have gone the route of pigtailing with approved connectors. If they were closer to the panels, we could pull new wire, but most of the maintenance guys are not savvy on wire-pulling and such.


"We can do it, you can't help" said my son to the HD guy
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,445
Likes: 2
Cat Servant
Member
FWIW .... this job has progressed to the point where I can say, with certainty, what was wrong with the trailer.

I found seven basic errors ... three of them combining to create the shock hazard that got this place vacated.

What is germane to this thread is that NONE of the problems was directly caused by the aluminum wiring, the standard wire nuts used to join copper fixture pigtails to aluminum circuit conductors, the lack of noalox, or the use of ordinary wiring devices.

The two boxes that showed heat damage just may have been the result of a heavy appliance load (kitchen appliances), and not loose or corroded connections to the devices.

Page 2 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5