ECN Forum Forums General Topics of the Trade Business Related Discussion The GC / Sub Relationship

I think we have two separate issues here.

Food off your table? If there's no need for a GC, it's not only NOT your table, you're not even invited to dinner.

Otherwise, I've heard this "I take good care of my subs" line before. Apart from being something I've never seen ... such a practice is absolutely not in my interest.

Some claim it's a textbook ploy out of Detroit; whatever the origin is, here's how it works: a large firm swamps a smaller one with work, effectively monopolizing the smaller firms' capacity. The smaller firm becomes dependent upon the larger firm. Once hooked, the larger firm then pressures the smaller firm to lower prices, adjust production schedules, etc., all with the threat of removing their business - thereby bankrupting the smaller business.

It's not in my interest to let such a situation develop. Rather, a healthy business spreads it's risk by having a broad customer base. That way, the failure of one customer to supply business - for whatever reason - has a lesser effect on the business. It's the old "don't put your eggs in one basket" business model.

Every GC, it seems, is convinced that they are somehow different from the others. There may be some truth to that idea; I do know that some GC's get better pricing from me than others.
What's the secret to getting good pricing from me? Simple: you do your job and I'll do mine. That means you need to concern yourself with only a handful of things. These include:
1) Pay me - on time;
2) Schedule the trades on a job;
3) Take out the trash; and,
4) Make sure there's a working toilet on site.

In short ... you stick to your business, and I'll stick to mine. You do a good job this time, and the next time I'll cut your price.

Why is it that subs get to list requirements and a GC can't?
those four concerns are valid, I have one concern...keep me in the loop. If your in the building I brought you to and the project manager asks you directly to do something else, fine just mention it to me. Not because I want a cut, some mafia style tribute. (just to whet my beak) I just want to know whats going on, I must mention also that this applies only to buildings I work in all the time, not new or one time hired situations.

there is some degree of protectionism involved, I want to keep great clients Happy, and I would (and have) look into problems occuring from other peoples work for them. after working in a building (several of them) for years, there is an attachment, to the people (tenants,staff,management) even if their are other contractors there competing for bids, which there often is.

I think what people are missing from my posts, is that I think of it as a TEAM effort and not a threat or "dangling a carrot" most of my subs are no bid contractors, I bid the (small) jobs without getting a quote because I know their average cost per unit. sometimes I put out from my pocket because I over looked something or under estimated something and some times I get lucky an things go easier than I thought.

I have 3 electrical contractors for example: one larger one and two spin-off's of that larger one, both with owners that worked for the larger company. whenever it gets slow or there's a huge job, the smaller companies come to work for the larger company as employees. we all go way back to even before I got my license, we all comunicate on the walkies, and we all know whats going on with each other.

damn straight, i'd be suprised and even hurt if I'm not told about a job in one of "my" buildings, from one of "my" subs, I expect at least that much.

fortunate for me and my subs, this whole notion isn't as hard to grasp as it seems it is with YOU guys. I can only say that i'm lucky to have the extended crews I have.

right now I have my guys pulling weeds and cleaning up the hills in my back yard (home/office), because we are slow. tomorrow two of my guys are going to help one of my subs out on their job for a couple of days.
we look after our own.

One more thing, this whole notion of getting "hooked" "monopolizing" and becoming "dependent" is silly. I pity the fool who puts all his/her eggs in one basket! this isn't WALMAT where i get to beat down prices, I'm not the only contractor in town! we are talking about contractors running their businesses differently, I know of a GC that one of "my" subs works for that buries his subs in paper work! (daily reports,time keeping records, material recipts) thats the way they do business, and if you don't like it , don't work for them! it's that simple, I have a handshake and a promise from you that the job will be done on time, thats most of my contracts with "my" subs.
no one HAS to work with me no one is "stuck" we ARE all "independent" right?!...RichR.

AHMEN Watt !!

The guy I'm with now, wanted a "non-compete" the way it was writen I wouldn't be able to work. In any aspect of electrical.
I had no problem signing the agreement not to disclose bidding and rate info. After all thats in my best interest aswell.

As far as work on the side.. (some hate that term and idea)..I have all my papers in order and I do only Electrical, No conflicts there.

The CO. I work for does all special hazard fire suppression,sprinklers and mic. Bldg fire.

For what it's worth, I have several customers who have a "No General Contractor" policy. One customer is a hospital and the others are manufacturing businesses. They have an in house construction superintendent and they sub out all trades. They have found that dealing with GCs creates more liabilities than benefits.

Actually when you look at the General Contracting industry, I'm surprised it's legal. They insinuate themselves between the customer and the people who actually do the work and siphon off funds like a leach. After the subs to a great job, the GC steps up and takes credit for it!

I've worked for hundreds of GCs and 95% of them are now out of business. A GC is just a handyman who got so busy he had to hire subs. GC's ARE FRAMERS. Need I say more?

As far as the OP, if the GC is still on the job, proper etiquette says that he should be notified of the customer's request and he should get a piece of the action if he requests it, but if he's down the road, no such courtesy is required.

"I've worked for hundreds of GCs and 95% of them are now out of business"---skyline electric

Yeah, pimpin' aint easy.

My "usual" GC - I now refuse to work with him - got his experience pouring concrete sidewalks. Many of his electrical 'innovations' have been the subject of picture threads. On our last job, he somehow found an unlicensed, illegal alien (Eastern European) hack to do the refrigeration work.
Cement work to HVAC ... that's quite a jump.

By contrast, on another job was the 'other kind' of GC. Toilet maintained, lifts provided, trades coordinated (for the most part), communication with the customer and the numerous inspecting groups kept flowing.

Whenever these threads get going, every GC claims attributes near sainthood. Such has most definitely NOT been my experience. A typical example: on a major job, I was awaiting final payment. The GC wanted the subs to release him before paying them - so he could, in turn, get paid by the customer.
Alas, this is exactly the opposite of standard practice, as well as Nevada contracting law. That is, both the law, and AIA contracts, specify that the subs get paid FIRST, before the GC gets paid. In this case, the customer made inquiries.
The GC was telling the subs that he was waiting to get paid.
The GC told the customer that the subs still had paperwork outstanding (his release).
The customer made it clear - pay the subs FIRST, if you want your final payment, as called for in the contracts. The whole purpose of that 'hold back' was to ensure that the subs got paid, to prevent the GC from taking the money and running.
(Now, this may seem backwards - until you realize that every sub can lien the property if he's not paid. The customer simply doesn't want to get stuck paying twice!)

Amazingly enough, the only constant in dealing with GC's has been this: if the GC makes promises of future work, or expounds on how large he is .... you know you're in for a tough time.

I too am an electrical contractor as well as a general contractor. When I build a house, I am not a framer, I am more of a broker. I agree with watts on the courtesy subject. I have no obligation to him legally, but if he asks "just let me know what is going on" I have no issues. If he wants money for it. I don't think so.

Honestly though, I work for good contractors. They have all been good to me. They all meet reno's 4 qualifications and allow me to do my job the way I think best. They pay on time, no arguements. Maybe questions but no arguements. I have never used a contract. I send a quote for the job and a bill after rough in with any changes listed and priced. I may get taken one day and it may all change, but I like to do business with a handshake and gc's that can do the same. I don't deal directly with large cooporations and I understand that is a different ball game.

I have one small commercial contractor that paid me 10K for a small job. A year later he still has not gotten paid anything. I realize that this is his responsibility and I appreciate his making sure his subs got paid.

Dear bamboozled,

Good generals maybe like baby Pigeons, YOU may have never seen one but their out there, and lots of them. or you may ask: what are they good for? Well the good LORD put them there to serve a purpose as part of the food chain. and you just may not be smart enough to question the big guy!

But if you really don't want to deal with them...set up spikes or poison.

and they won't bother you no more.

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