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Joined: Jul 2004
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G
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Some of the bump in accident numbers might be from the ambulance chasers on TV telling workers they have a claim for things they didn't consider a work related injury. Hurt your leg playing football on sunday and take a dive monday morning at work. File a claim


Greg Fretwell
Arc Flash PPE Clothing, LOTO & Insulated Tools
Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
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Greg, I can't fault your healthy skepticism. While figures don't lie ... liars can figure! Alas, I no longer have the source documentation to present to all here.

The trends were dramatic, and the timing -coincident with the creation of OSHA, and their equipment-oriented approach- was unmistakable. Simply put, the return to the 'old way' resulted in an immediate return to 'old accident rates.' Times change, technology changes ... but human nature is the same today as it was in the time of the Prophets.

Speculation about the statistics used in the trends is also cut short by the confirming results brought about by management or attitude changes. For example, some industries are very seasonal ... and those industries have their accident rates skyrocket as the 'busy' season comes to an end. One might consider linking the accident rates to things like fatigue - and folks being concerned over whether they will be laid off THIS week. I'm not talking about 'sprained back' or 'carpal tunnel' here ... I'm talking about the loss of body parts!

These are the very real, injury-producing factors that will never be addressed by either equipment specifications or certification requirements. These are what need to be addressed for a REAL reduction in accidents.

In another thread here, a member is asking how to do something on equipment he has not been trained on. I'll give him credit for asking .... but, if he gets hurt, it will be 'caused' by a company that failed to train him, provide him with the necessary equipment, etc. Oddly enough, it is the companies that hold their management to account that have trained, equipped, safe employees. Companies where management is allowed to say 'not my fault' have more people get hurt. It can be that simple.

Joined: Jul 2004
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G
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I think the biggest aid in the prevention of accidents and minimization of injury in these accidents is in the hands of the workers and job supers. If you see something that is unsafe do something about it. My wife used to be the crazy lady that threw broken or field built ladders in the dumpster and confiscated defective extension cords. Everyone, wears a hard hat, no matter who you are (even the inspectors) and you need safety glasses if you are working around flying stuff. She was a fanatic about keeping the job site clean. You may fall off the ladder but you are landing in soft sand, not rebar and broken block. It may have seemed excessive but their accident rate was lower, simply because it got everyone thinking about safety.
She had some "incidents" but no "accidents" in 5 years and 200 houses.


Greg Fretwell
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 642
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I see that most of us who work with our hands will agree that the most dangerous person on a job site is the job super who is always yelling about hurrying up and get it done NOW. Most of the time they use the OSHA regulations as an excuse to (1) fire some one they dont like or (2) to cover thier hind end when something goes wrong or (3) find blame when an incident/accident occurs or some combonation of above.
I travel a lot and have seen this far too many times.
An example is a ethonal plant near here now will not let a trade worker on thier property unless that worker has taken the OSHA 10hr course in the past year and has to take it again every year. They will NOT pay for it.
This is the type of B.S. that I personally do not want to give the creators of any more regulation/codes to use as justification for more empire building by so called safety personnel.


ed
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,335
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Member
Kudos to the Mrs.! When I do inspections on our facilities, I'll cut the plug end off of defective cords. I locked up two buildings last year due to safety problems. A third one darn neared got it too but it was an "easy fix". I'll take safety over quanitity any day.


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
Joined: May 2005
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G
Member
I remember seeing a sign on one jobsite that read:

Safety engineers are here to SAVE YOUR ASS...not to kiss it!


Ghost307
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 110
T
Member
Originally Posted by SteveFehr
Joe,

...

You also fail to mention that a lot (most?) of the electrocutions come not from electrical workers, but accidental contact from other trades. There is nothing we can do to prevent stupidity.



I mentioned previously that I work in telecom. At work we have weekly (Monday morning) safety meetings, and this week was electricity. We were told in no uncertain terms that ANYTHING 120V or more shouldn't be touched, ANY problems with that part of the install should be reported to the electricians. No exceptions! (The meeting was much more detailed, this was the relevant highlight)
I must say I agree, and think we need more employers that care.

Joined: Jul 2002
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Joe,
I've worked in a LOT of factories, where all the safety rules go out the window as soon as you enter the place.
Mainly because of one thing:
Management, mainly the middle type.

One place where I used to do break-down work, I was greeted by this jumped-up guy saying this:
"Oh you're here!, you're too late, I've already fixed the problem, it was just a blown fuse, I replaced it."

I asked to see the plant room and the switch-board panel that controlled the huge pump that had just had a fuse replaced on it.
I was refused entry, given the excuse:
Don't pretend that you know our plant, I know what is going on here, you don't work here all the time, I do"

I said OK, just let me check the thing, which I was allowed to do.
Looked at the contactor and fuse gear and smelt a burning smell, I shut the thing down.
Opened the fuses up to find 3 fuses shorted out with tinned copper wire and the O/Loads set to manual trip.
This sort of thing really gets my goat.
"Only enough knowledge to be a danger to staff and equipment"

But this attitude of "keep the plant working at ALL costs", is a saddening indictment on modern management, I've seen it all over the place.
Don't get me wrong there are places around that call an Electrician at the slightest murmer from a motor or a problem with a blown fuse.

Just because you are a Supervisor in a factory, does NOT qualify you to go your own merry way with electrical faults.
What you do can kill someone later on down the track.

Don't get me started on bypassing controls and safety systems.
GRRR



Joined: Jan 2005
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Cat Servant
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I keep hearing assertions regarding 'safety training,' etc. Horsefeathers!

Oh, 'safety is a wonderful concept. However, the bent of these proposals is to REMOVE the worker himself from the safety equation. This is exactly opposite of the claimed purpose of these efforts.

Virtually no one visiting this web site has ANY safety training- at least, as these seminar wonks wish to define it. To them, 'training' only counts if it is the canned presentation, one-size-fits-all rulebook that they attempt to sell at their seminars - AND the dated 'certificate' attendance buys you.

You want safety? The answer lies in Demming's management principles- and NOT the 'industrial engineering' approach too often taken.
The two main principles Demming stressed are:
LET the worker decide. This means no more idiotic enforcement of safety glasses and hard hat rules. Please not it was the enforcement I refer to as idiotic - and not the use of the gear!
Second ... hold management accountable. As Peters (Not the "Mr. Sparky" guy) has well documented, accident rates plummet the moment they start having an impact on management bonuses.

Joined: Jul 2004
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G
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The reason safety glasses and hard hat rules are like they are is if they weren't nobody would ever wear them.
It is very easy to rationalize that you never walk under something that could fall on you and you don't get close to stuff that could fly in your eye but that is just not the way it is on a construction site or industrial venue.
If you don't just get into the habit of wearing safety gear you won't have it with you and you won't feel comfortable working in it.


Greg Fretwell
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