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Redsy #171365 11/26/07 11:30 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 599
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JBD Offline
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Originally Posted by Redsy
so 85 kva is only 205 amps at 120/240.


The correct phrasing is 240/120V for a high (wild) leg delta system per IEEE and ANSI. I know saying "120/240 wild leg" is a hard habit to break (heck I still usually say 110/220V) but this method does reduce confusion.

Basically this standard methodology is:
single phase: list the low (line-neutral) voltage first then the high (line-line) voltage - 120/240, 120/208Y, and 277/480Y
three phase: list the high voltage first, then a wye if it is a wye system or nothing if it is delta, and then the low voltage - 240/120, 208Y/120, and 480Y/277.
Including the number of phases and current carrying wires is optional (the ground wire is always infered).

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JBD #171367 11/26/07 01:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
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Thanx JBD,

It is important to use proper terminology to convay info. I can not stress that enough. I work with a bunch of engineers of all disiplines, WEEE! Per this post for example the OP did state that the service was 3 phase and I just missed it. We all throw around improper terms daily and without thinking about it. For example: wire nuts, romex, smurf, 110/220, high leg, wild leg, etc. and for the most part we all understand it or know to ask additional questions on what we do not. Not to be picky smile


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
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Rojo-sy (Redsy):

To me, the 4/0cu THHN looks good, for Parallel runs in the same Raceway.

That being said, I have a few things to mention:

1: Be sure to discuss the Parallel Service Feeders idea with the Utility Service Planner, which is involved with this Project.
This needs to be verified per their compiance before installed - because even if the Building Department accepts it per the EE's drawings, the Utility may not approve it.

To verify compliance, try:
  1. Contact the Service Planner for the district / area of the project.
    If unknown, call the Utility and begin the "Hunt" until you find someone with information, who is familiar with your project.
  2. Verify minimum compliance via "ESR" documents (Electrical Service Requirements).
    Most Utilities have their ESR manuals + UGS (Underground Structures) manuals available for download via their websites.
    Typically these texts are saved as .PDFs
    Be double sure and verbally verify what the ESR allows, with a Service Planner - then procede with the installation.
  3. Contact the Utility Service Inspector whom will be reviewing the installation and approving it, and eventually submitting release for Meter.


After verification of Parallel Service Feeders is obtained, then contact the EE and have that person revise the Single Line, to reflect the proposed Service Feeders + 4" Duct(s).

Lastly, re-submit the revised Planset to the Plans Examination department (Plan Check).

A Bit Of FYI

Out here - in Southern California, Service Feeders are "NORMALLY" installed by the Utility - and we install the Ducts + Pull Ropes.

With a new Pad Mount Transformer installation, we would install Ducts + Pull Ropes for both the Primary side Feeder, and the Secondary side Feeders - along with the Vault and Service Equipment.


A few Utilities - City of Anaheim being one of them, requires the EC to install Service Feeders (Secondary side only), plus terminate them in the Service Equipment.

All proposed Service Designs are per the governing Utility's ESR / UGS manuals, with verifications from the Service Planner - prior to submitting to the building department's plan check.

Typical Duct sizes are 4" Minimum, with 5" ducts sometimes quoted.
Most designs will be minimum of Two 4" ducts for a 400 amp Service.

A typical Service / Utility design for me involves at least Six (6) 4" PVC Ducts, Concrete-Encased; and One (1) 4" PVC Duct - also Concrete-Encased, for the Primary Feeder.

When doing any Service installs in Anaheim, the use of Aluminum makes things much nicer -as opposed to Copper Feeders.
With 12 Parallel Runs, using 750 AL is SOOOOOOO much easier to feed and manipulate, compared to 500 Copper!!!.

Just goes to show the differences each of us face in our trade, per which Ocean you are closest to! wink

One last thing:

I "Ass-U-Me" you are planning to derate the size of the Grounded Neutral Conductor for this feeder?
Be sure to verify this is OK with BOTH of the AHJs - the Utility Department + the Building Department.

Ohh, one more "Last Thing":

If the 3 Phase load is "minimal", as compared to the L-N 1 Phase load, and therefore the "High Leg" is also being derated in size, verify this with the AHJs too.

Find out if they (the Utility) wants the "High Leg" to be in Position "C" (ØC) at the Meter, or if they do not care anymore.
I am kind of curious what Utilities still want Hot/Cold Sequencing, or still use single stator watt-hour meters on 240/120V 3Ø 4 Wire Delta Services.

Make sure to place that High Leg in Position "B" on the Load side of the Service disconnect + identify it "Orange" - wherever the Grounded Neutral Conductor is also present.

Good luck and have fun!!!

Scott


Scott " 35 " Thompson
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Joined: Nov 2000
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sparkyinak,
Quote
The service wires are protected by the POCO OCPD at the transformer.

The utility fuse on the line side of the transformer in no way provides any protection for the service conductors...it doesn't even protect the transformer. Its only purpose is to protect the distribution system. That is cut off the supply to the transformer before it takes out the upstream OCPD on the distribution system.
Service conductors are protected from overload by the service OCPD, but they have no protection for ground faults and short circuits.


Don(resqcapt19)
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,335
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You are correct. My bad.


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
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Redsy Offline OP
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Thanks everyone. Thanks Scott.

BTW,

I spoke with the city inspector and he said that in 30+ years, he had never seen parallel conductors in the same conduit.

As long as they are the same length and any possible derating is addressed, does anyone see a problem with this?

The job was bid with parallel conductors because the original EC installed (2) 2 1/2" PVCs.

The utility requires 4" minimum. So, I am replacing the pipes with a 4", but because 600kcmil would cost $1,200.00 more, I want to keep the parallel 4/0. as long as POCO has no issue.

How about you Hotline? This is PSEG and the city of Camden.

Thanks.

John

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,381
Likes: 7
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Redsy:
First...TALK to PSE&G Wiring Inspector/Service Tech!!! Southern District, Moorestown, NJ 856-778-6852
I do not have any contacts there, I'm 60+ miles North

Do you have the PSE&G Green Book??? You need one for all the specs, & it can be a greif preventer!

Why did the 2x2-1/2 get rejected??
Don't make much sense if parallel conductors are OK with PSE&G??

Your 4" with parallel is NEC compliant, based on the above posts......but I have to add....I have not seen a job like this, nor have I personally installed one like that.

Did you price out 750KCMil AL?

I didn't jump in earlier as I thought it was a closed issue.

Need more? Call me on my cell



John
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