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Joined: Jan 2003
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Originally Posted by renosteinke
First of all, I've seen plenty of UL Standards, and they all reference the NEC.


Of course. smile

Originally Posted by renosteinke
I am not aware of UL ever listing something that is inherently in conflict with the NEC.


Actually if you think about it, it happens all the time.

For example an electrical enclosure might be listed for use in 'wet locations' but that does not mean it can go in any wet location without regard for other code sections that may apply.

Lets say the wet location is also a Class 1 Div 1 location. I can't say the enclosure is OK to use there simply because it is a wet location and the fixture is wet location listed.

Lets say the wet location is beside a pool for a lighting transformer.

Can I use any wet listed enclosure or must I also comply with 680.24?

I could probably go on quite awhile finding things that you see as conflicts and I see as knowing the code before you pick equipment.

Quote
IF that same appliance had instructions that said 'no GFCI,' then 110.3B would be enforceable.


Would it be?

The fact is 110.3(B) only applies to instructions included in the 'listing or labeling' we have no way of knowing right know if the the 'No GFCI' instruction is in fact part of the listing or labeling or is just one of many suggestions.

Quote
Sure looks like a code conflict to me.


I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

It seems you are hell bent on finding conflicts in the NEC either real or perceived and I don't understand why. confused


Bob Badger
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Quote
I am looking at the instructions provided by Dacor, a premiun brand of refrigerator. Their sheet states "Your Dacor Built-in refrigerator is equipped with a .... power cord, which must be plugged into a 3-prong grounding type non-GFCI wall receptacle."

I really doubt that this instruction is an actual part of the listing and labeling. In my opinion it is only a manufacturer's recommendation and not an listing and labeling instruction. Only instructions that are a actual part of the listing and labeling are covered by 110.3(B).
Don


Don(resqcapt19)
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< ADD MY 2¢ MODE = ENABLED >

Quote

because of the capacitors in many refs and im guessing inductive reactance in heating appliances a good, working, safe, functional piece of equipment of these types will trip gfci receptacles.


Nahhh, that sounds like another of those "Urban Electrical Myths".

If the load device is leaking a high level of Current to another Conducting path, rather than retaining the "Majority Load Current" between the 2 (or 3) Circuit Conductors, then there is a Fault Issue incorporated within the Equipment.

If a Class A (6 ma trip threshold) GFCI Receptacle device is tripping with a Cord-Connected Appliance connected to it, there's obviously a leakage hazard.

A GFCI device _SHOULD NOT_ trip from the starting of Split Phase Induction Motors - because of one little thing: Kirchoff's Law.

The Leading (or Lagging) Current which is "established" by the Auxiliary Winding's Resistance-to-Reactance Ratio, is derived from the same source as the Main "Run" Winding's load Current.
The two currents will flow through the GFCI device, with each one being equal across the two wires of the monitored circuit.

Are all Refrigerator Compressor Motors Capacitor Start?
I figured the larger sized ones would be Cap Start (and possibly Cap Start/Run), whereas smaller and less expensive ones would be simple Split Phase Resistance Start Motors.

If there is a GFCI trip at start, chances are the Aux. Winding is leaking to the Motor's Frame, or the Start Switch is throwing a fat, sustained arc to the Motor's Frame, as it begins to open.

Seems to me if the GFCI was at the Breaker, set at 3 ma trip level, with the Branch Circuit being REALLY LONG, (and possibly run in a damp location for most of its length), AND the Refrigerator's Compressor Motor is mounted right where the condensation collects (so condensed water enters the Motor or enters frayed sections of the Cord), then we might have a "Weener" (Winner).

Not that all GFCI's developed now are 100% "Nuiscance Trip Free", but they have evolved drastically in the past 30+ years.

I agree with the consepts introduced by Article 210.8 (B)(2), to include GFCI Protection in Commercial Environments - mostly due to the Floor Cleaning scenario mentioned by others, but also from some Troubleshooting scenarios I have resolved in the past, where Personnel complain of being shocked by Refrigeration Appliances.

Most were due to either the Door Switch failure, or an internal light fixture failing, setting up a Ground Fault hazard - and the Cord was either missing its ground pin, or someone "fixed" the tripping breaker problem, by placing one of those "Ground Cheater Adapters" on the Plug.

There were a few caused by leaking elements on the Appliance, and a couple from certain installation Persons following the old:
"Grounding Conductor?..., we don't need no stinking Grounding Conductor",
and similar types of Philosopy.

In all these cases, the EGC was not effectively able to carry Ground Fault Currents.


Quote

I talked with P&S legrand tech support to ask if they had come up with some kind of 'smart' gfci to address the tripping issues with the stuff the only answer he had was to install grade B gfci (circuit breaker) protection which he rightly said defeats the purpose of the personnel protection.(honestly I was unaware that the breakers had a higher trip threshhold until he advised me)


That's really scarry to know a Manufacturer's Represenative would spew out such trash!!!

GFPE is not GFCI, and vise-versa.
GFPE is like at a 30 ma level, and is not a "Protection for Personnel" device.

< / END SUB "ADD MY 2¢" >


Scott " 35 " Thompson
Just Say NO To Green Eggs And Ham!
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GFI on all recept in a comm kitchen sounded like anightmare in the making back when. We did a lot of Country Club work, and a few restuarants. Yes, ALL 120 volt receptacles, be they single, or duplex, shall be GFI.

OK, we did it! And yes, a few 'issues' arose. A 'bad' slicer! A ice crusher toy with a real problem, and a plate warmer with an attitude. A few items either to the appliance tech (or dumpster) and issues resolved.

Single recept w/deadfront, single with GF breaker, duplex GFI (all 20 amp). Bubble covers in the really wet areas, and job done.



John
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,335
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If a GFCI trips, 99.9 percent there is a pending electrical problem with the equipment. The problem is usually when it is plug it in a regular recept, nothing happens so it wrongly assumed that the GFCI is defective. Given the ground fault is minute. It makes it hard to TS it.


"Live Awesome!" - Kevin Carosa
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I had a project where the Owner told me of a GFCI receptacle in the kitchen that was defective.

Their logic? It tripped whenever the appliance plugged into it was turned on. The receptacle didn't trip when anything else was plugged in, just this 1 appliance.
I told him to plug the thing into another GFCI and (surprise) it tripped that one.
He said that the first GFCI MUST be defective because it trips, but the others weren't going to be a problem because the appliance was only supposed to be plugged into the 'defective' receptacle.
I pointed out that the appliance must be defective and he told me "it can't be defective, it's brand new".

AUUGGHH!!!!

I hate clueless people.


Ghost307
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 46
Samurai Offline OP
Member
I've had similar situations, ghost, where on a nuisance trip call, I'll ask (if it isnt terribly inconvenient) to plug the appliance into a different gfci circuit for comparative reference. if the other gfci trips within a similar time frame, the owner now has a demonstration that its the appliance; though the brand new issue may thicken their heads still.
even so, a different gfci "holding" the redirected appliance indicates almost nothing, possibly a gfci that has had the trip thresh-hold rise, or the other gfci is no good. (the p&s guy had also said that their gfcis don't degrade in amp sensitivity, but on failing - the ruined kind - won't reset.)

incedentally the P&S guy DID say that changing to class B protection would defeat the personnel protection purpose.

I just re-read your post - duh, you DID do the try it on another gfci. it's the "it cant be a counterfeit UL logo, it's brand new, your wiring caused it to melt" thing

Last edited by Samurai; 08/20/07 11:47 AM. Reason: p.s.
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